Suicide rate in Japan -- Purpose in life

[MMM]

Originally Posted by RealJames

would you say that most Americans treat xmas as a serious religious ritual or as a cultural tradition?

I think it depends who you talk to. That is a common debate in the US, but the US is also a mostly Christian nation.

Originally Posted by RealJames

We agree on the whole suicide bit, and I think we agree about this too if anything just the words I'm using aren't explicit enough
My original thing was that religion is hardly taken seriously in Japan.
It definitely is a major part of modern Japanese culture, but people don't even think of it most of the time, even while doing those cultural "religious" things. Right?

When you say "hardly taken seriously" I read that to mean it is a joke. I think you mean more literally, it isn't a motivating force in people's lives. On the other hand, people are never critical of organized religion in Japan, mostly because they never need to be. The followers of Buddha and Shinto are not on tv or on street corners yelling for people to repent or go to hell. You never hear Japanese people say "Those stupid Buddhists are a joke."

So people will go to the temple every year and buy a new good luck charm out of tradition, but for most Japanese that is the extent of their faith. In places like Nara and Kyoto these places of worship are seen more as attractions than holy places.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

Shintoism and Buddism, have alot (though not the whole reason) to do with the thought processes that eventually lead to a great nation to have the 5th largestest suicide rate.

Maybe a change in thought is needed?

I don't think I like the direction you are going. I think it is a bit arrogant and ignorant to imply that two of the most peaceful religious belief systems in the history of the world are to blame, even in part, for Japan's suicide rate.

Your understanding of Japanese culture is clearly rudimentary at best. If this is really important to you, I recommend you do some research and take a look at Japan while taking off the cultural baggage you clearly bring with you.

[Kelvindegrez]

Originally Posted by MMM

I don't think I like the direction you are going. I think it is a bit arrogant and ignorant to imply that two of the most peaceful religious belief systems in the history of the world are to blame, even in part, for Japan's suicide rate.

Your understanding of Japanese culture is clearly rudimentary at best. If this is really important to you, I recommend you do some research and take a look at Japan while taking off the cultural baggage you clearly bring with you.

Thanks MMM I really do appreciate your concern about my comment. I shall take your recommendation (which i've been doing more so since I have more free time), because it really is important to me. Also can you point me to research material that has made a impact to you personally that would help me along the way?

i also would like to note however that, Friedrich Nietzsche, by his view of the world came to the conclusion of nihilism. Some people hold that belief in that sort of thinking, some of that group take their lives because of no meaning. It can be taken for granted that ideas do have consequences.

You said so yourself earlier: "My feeling is that Japanese culture treats life and death a little differently than we do in the West." I agree, but how do you think that came about?

Many things play into how a culture views and values things: History, Religion, even just geographical location, etc. To discount anyone of them eventually hinders solutions, and ultimately creates more problems.

Also i'm aware of the cultural baggage that I bring to the table. However I seek to understand in all ways not just one. I don't only want to view this as a western thinker. Nor do I only want to view it an eastern thinker. I seek knowledge as a whole. That mean's acquiring all,of the "lenses" that this issue could be viewed through.

I think at the end of the day regardless what's most important to me is their lives as human beings. My heart has started the engine, my mind will be the fuel to go, and my body will make it happen

[RealJames]

Originally Posted by MMM

When you say "hardly taken seriously" I read that to mean it is a joke. I think you mean more literally, it isn't a motivating force in people's lives. On the other hand, people are never critical of organized religion in Japan, mostly because they never need to be.

bingo, so we do agree after all

I want to add that I've been noticing this growing subculture of "organized religion is evil" among a lot of the youth, for many of the same reasons it's popular in north america, causing wars etc. but still quite a few of those relatively.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

Thanks MMM I really do appreciate your concern about my comment. I shall take your recommendation (which i've been doing more so since I have more free time), because it really is important to me. Also can you point me to research material that has made a impact to you personally that would help me along the way?

I am sorry, that is your mission. I cannot recommend anything that has helped me.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

i also would like to note however that, Friedrich Nietzsche, by his view of the world came to the conclusion of nihilism. Some people hold that belief in that sort of thinking, some of that group take their lives because of no meaning. It can be taken for granted that ideas do have consequences.

I don't think Nietzsche really applies here, because you are assuming people in Japan are committing suicide because their lives have no meaning. I think suicides in Japan happen for other reasons.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

You said so yourself earlier: "My feeling is that Japanese culture treats life and death a little differently than we do in the West." I agree, but how do you think that came about?

I am sure a book could be written to answer that question. You wouldn't assume all cultures see life and death the same way, would you?

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

Many things play into how a culture views and values things: History, Religion, even just geographical location, etc. To discount anyone of them eventually hinders solutions, and ultimately creates more problems.

To say Buddhism and Shinto were partially the cause of why Japanese have a high suicide rate makes as much sense as saying seaweed and chopsticks are also partially to blame. You are barking up the wrong tree.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

Also i'm aware of the cultural baggage that I bring to the table. However I seek to understand in all ways not just one. I don't only want to view this as a western thinker. Nor do I only want to view it an eastern thinker. I seek knowledge as a whole. That mean's acquiring all,of the "lenses" that this issue could be viewed through.

I think at the end of the day regardless what's most important to me is their lives as human beings. My heart has started the engine, my mind will be the fuel to go, and my body will make it happen

Their lives, meaning who? Japanese people? I wish you the best, but really, get educated. If you start talking about how Shinto, the most innocuous and peaceful way of thinking I have ever experienced, has anything to do with why people commit suicide you are not going to get many people to listen to you. You have a long and difficult path ahead, but I hope you are up for it.

[Kelvindegrez]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am sorry, that is your mission. I cannot recommend anything that has helped me.



I don't think Nietzsche really applies here, because you are assuming people in Japan are committing suicide because their lives have no meaning. I think suicides in Japan happen for other reasons.



I am sure a book could be written to answer that question. You wouldn't assume all cultures see life and death the same way, would you?



To say Buddhism and Shinto were partially the cause of why Japanese have a high suicide rate makes as much sense as saying seaweed and chopsticks are also partially to blame. You are barking up the wrong tree.



Their lives, meaning who? Japanese people? I wish you the best, but really, get educated. If you start talking about how Shinto, the most innocuous and peaceful way of thinking I have ever experienced, has anything to do with why people commit suicide you are not going to get many people to listen to you. You have a long and difficult path ahead, but I hope you are up for it.

From your response here is what I believe that you think I believe :
A. That Buddhism and Shintoism are factors involved in the role of suicide.
B. That I believe people are committing suicide because they have no meaning.

A. I would say yes, now follow my argument:
1. Religion shapes a culture and how it thinks about and views the world.
2. Reasons to commit suicide are based on one's culture and how one views the world.
3. Buddhism and Shintoism have shaped Japanese culture and how it views the world.
4. Therefore Buddhism and Shintoism have some basis in their reason to commit suicide.

I think your assuming that I think its a direct cause. But just because its not a direct cause doesn't mean it isn't an indirect cause. Or that it is not necessary condition for other causes.

1. Billy dropped the vase and it broke
2. For the vase to drop and to break there must be gravity
3. Billy was the cause of the vase breaking
4. Gravity was the necessary condition for Billy to cause the breaking.

B. I do not believe that is the only reason, obviously its not that simple


Im not here to debate logic and reason, and the origin of ideas.

Rather you did mention that you believed that there are other reasons that are the cause for it. Would you mind stating them concisely? Or is that my mission alone to find out?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

From your response here is what I believe that you think I believe :
A. That Buddhism and Shintoism are factors involved in the role of suicide.
B. That I believe people are committing suicide because they have no meaning.

I will indulge you one last time. After this you are on your own.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

A. I would say yes, now follow my argument:

Here we go.
vem

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

1. Religion shapes a culture and how it thinks about and views the world.

Not true in Japan. There is no religious movement that shapes the Japanese culture. It may be hard to believe from a culture that is dominated by religious thinking, but what can I tell you? That's not the world.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

2. Reasons to commit suicide are based on one's culture and how one views the world.

This is really too open a statement to respond to. I have no idea if this is true or not.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

3. Buddhism and Shintoism have shaped Japanese culture and how it views the world.

Ask a modern-day Japanese person if they think this statement is true.

Have you read a word I have written? This is pound for pound the most agnostic Asian country you are going to find. So you want to blame Buddhism and Shinto? I cannot tell you how wrong you are without using profanity.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

4. Therefore Buddhism and Shintoism have some basis in their reason to commit suicide.

You are officially off the scales. This is probably the most uneducated statement I have ever read on this site.

Originally Posted by Kelvindegrez

I think your assuming that I think its a direct cause. But just because its not a direct cause doesn't mean it isn't an indirect cause. Or that it is not necessary condition for other causes.

1. Billy dropped the vase and it broke
2. For the vase to drop and to break there must be gravity
3. Billy was the cause of the vase breaking
4. Gravity was the necessary condition for Billy to cause the breaking.

B. I do not believe that is the only reason, obviously its not that simple


Im not here to debate logic and reason, and the origin of ideas.

Rather you did mention that you believed that there are other reasons that are the cause for it. Would you mind stating them concisely? Or is that my mission alone to find out?

You are so off the scales, I can't even begin.

[RealJames]

Shintoism and Buddhism, either directly or indirectly by some odd way of shaping a minor part of modern Japanese culture, have no relation to suicide.

The closest you'll get to having a point in that argument is to say that those religions didn't have enough of an impact to decrease the number of suicides...

[Kelvindegrez]

Originally Posted by MMM

I will indulge you one last time. After this you are on your own.



Here we go.
vem


1. Not true in Japan. There is no religious movement that shapes the Japanese culture. It may be hard to believe from a culture that is dominated by religious thinking, but what can I tell you? That's not the world.



2.This is really too open a statement to respond to. I have no idea if this is true or not.



3.Ask a modern-day Japanese person if they think this statement is true.

4.Have you read a word I have written? This is pound for pound the most agnostic Asian country you are going to find. So you want to blame Buddhism and Shinto? I cannot tell you how wrong you are without using profanity.



5.You are officially off the scales. This is probably the most uneducated statement I have ever read on this site.



6.You are so off the scales, I can't even begin.

1. It's the only part of my argument you addressed properly, but you answered with a "not true" A crash course in "worldviews" and how they are constructed, would show the simple validity of that statement. Your implying that it never shaped their culture. Obviously you read my argument but you didn't understand it. Oh well

The other responses where just flat out fallacious.
2. Appeal to Ignorance
3. Appeal to Belief
4. Ignoring a Common Cause
5. Appeal to Ridicule
6. Ad Hominem

Actually I asked a simple request at the end that you've seemed to ignore. But I guess you ignoring it is the answer to that question. Oh well
It seems your not really interested in helping seeing that all your responses have been just negative criticism, and no constructive criticism.

[dogsbody70]

isn't it unhappiness and being desperate that can cause a person to take their own life.

we all are capable of it, aren't we?

Perhaps if these people had somebody to turn to in their distress-- their lives could be saved.


It is awful for a family if one of theirs does take their own life-- all the guilt and blame they may put on themselves.


There were a spate of suicides of young people in a part of WALES last year.

I have no idea why? but its awful when someone is so desperate that they do kill themselves/


Was there any help when they really needed it I wonder.


The husband of a friend of my daughter's was found hanged by a Hoover cable. He had had a love affair and when it was called off-- He topped himself leaving his wife and family in terrible distress.