Osama Bin Ladin killed.

[pumpum]

BIN LADEN IS NOT DEAD!!!

ITS ALL A LIE!

I saw him two days ago playing bingo in manchester.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

I didn't say anything other than 'I don't care.' If I was a perfect person and looked at it rationally then it'd be different, but on the inside my whole thoughts on the proceedings is 'meh.' The world is a better place without the man in it, it's America's war. In future, things could have been done better perhaps, but I'm not gonna shed a tear over the fact he didn't get a trial.

If your comeback is that your viewpoint is not rational then you have no argument from me there.

I just wonder why you would conscously adopt an irrational position.

Seems kinda stupid.

Like if you didn't care period.. then fine.

But you go as far as saying "I'm glad he is dead".

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I will not shed a tear for this man. In my mind he had declared war on the US therefore he was an enemy combatant and could have been taken alive or put down, Not to be mean but anyone who thinks Osama would have allowed himself to be taken alive well you are more naive than i ever thought possible and it must be nice to see the world through your eyes. War does not ask the general public's permission to kill an enemy combatant. Would I have liked to see him on trial yes but his death was more than adequate. I'm sure Obama told the Seals if it was possible to take him alive without endangering themselves anymore than necessary do it if not put him down. His death will not be the end of Al Qaeda and conflicts will still continue. But as a decent human being i will not miss him and i think the world is better off without his hate he did not represent true Islam he twisted it to suite his needs.

You're being as presumptuous about the whole situation as those that you complain about.

You know about as much as what really happened as I do.

To clarify my position.. I would like to see him go to trial. But if the oppurtunity wasn't there to take him alive then so be it.

I just think Misa's position that "she's glad that he's dead and doesn't care that he didn't get a trial" is not rationally justifiable.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Pakistan is pissed before the US violated their airspace. Well Pakistan has not cooperative multiple times in the past allowing high profile targets to get away. I would normally never approve of a country violating another countries airspace. However, im willing to bet if this raid was shared with Pakistan Intelligence someone on the inside would have leaked the info and Osama would have fled. Pakistan has been embarrassed twice now first by the raid the US was able to slip in and out at ease and the fact that Osama was hiding in plain sight. I would love for us to pull aid we send them until we determine if they knew he was there.

Again you're being presumptuous.

Pakistan actually denies that it knew where he was. Did elements of Pakistan's SIS know? Perhaps... but there is no proof that they knew or no evidence to suggest that they could or should have known.

[Sinestra]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

You're being as presumptuous about the whole situation as those that you complain about.

You know about as much as what really happened as I do.

To clarify my position.. I would like to see him go to trial. But if the opportunity wasn't there to take him alive then so be it.

I just think Misa's position that "she's glad that he's dead and doesn't care that he didn't get a trial" is not rationally justifiable.

Its rational to her its not up nor I to decide if she is being rational about her feelings on the matter. She is not a Americans citizen of course her feelings would differ from people like MMM and I. Its obvious she thought he was a bad guy and she doesn't care that he didn't get a trail because he died in the same fashion that he lived violently but shes not going to loose sleep over it. I see nothing wrong with her position.

Again and i will not change my position on this because i feel VERY strongly about it. He was an enemy commander and combatant. If there was no way to take him alive and his action put any of the SEALS at risk he was treated as an enemy in a time of war. No we don't know all the details and we probably never will. I would have liked to see a trial but if his killing was unavoidable then so be it. I refuse to sadden that a guy who has no problem killing thousands of "civilians" to accomplish his goal in the name of his warped idea of Islam.

Again you're being presumptuous.

Pakistan actually denies that it knew where he was. Did elements of Pakistan's SIS know? Perhaps... but there is no proof that they knew or no evidence to suggest that they could or should have known.

Im not presumptuous. All im saying is that the aid we give them should be pulled till a through investigation can be conducted. If there is no evidence to support that no one in the upper ranks of the Pakistani government knew he was there then aid shall be returned. However, the location his compound was built in is a well to do area and the cost of the construction alone was in the millions. Im sorry someone knew maybe not in the upper ranks but someone did. Im not accusing them of anything but if your roof has a leak in you find the leak and plug it not sit and wait for a leak to cave your roof in.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Well he committed some terrible atrocities and openly admitted to doing so, the world is clearly a better place without him in it. I can't help how I honestly feel about certain things, and even though the logical side of me thinks that he perhaps should have deserved a trial, the emotional side of me thinks he wasn't humane enough to have one - the fact that it's over and done with means that it's too late to complain about his death now. That's what I meant, it's not 'stupid' in my opinion. I was just expressing how I felt as opposed to how I should feel.

Well it is "stupid" because it's irrational is all I'm saying and something that you admit to.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Its rational to her its not up nor I to decide if she is being rational about her feelings on the matter. She is not a Americans citizen of course her feelings would differ from people like MMM and I. Its obvious she thought he was a bad guy and she doesn't care that he didn't get a trail because he died in the same fashion that he lived violently but shes not going to loose sleep over it. I see nothing wrong with her position.

You see nothing wrong with your position? Are you oblivious to pretty much the entire foundation of the Western legal system and Western philosophy?

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Again and i will not change my position on this because i feel VERY strongly about it. He was an enemy commander and combatant. If there was no way to take him alive and his action put any of the SEALS at risk he was treated as an enemy in a time of war. No we don't know all the details and we probably never will. I would have liked to see a trial but if his killing was unavoidable then so be it. I refuse to sadden that a guy who has no problem killing thousands of "civilians" to accomplish his goal in the name of his warped idea of Islam.

Um.. I agree with you there.

But you said earlier

"Not to be mean but anyone who thinks Osama would have allowed himself to be taken alive well you are more naive than i ever thought possible and it must be nice to see the world through your eyes."

THAT is where you're being presumptuous.

[quote=Sinestra;865474]

Im not presumptuous. All im saying is that the aid we give them should be pulled till a through investigation can be conducted. If there is no evidence to support that no one in the upper ranks of the Pakistani government knew he was there then aid shall be returned. However, the location his compound was built in is a well to do area and the cost of the construction alone was in the millions. Im sorry someone knew maybe not in the upper ranks but someone did. Im not accusing them of anything but if your roof has a leak in you find the leak and plug it not sit and wait for a leak to cave your roof in.

An investigation is a good idea. But I don't know if it's in America's best interest to cut off aid (at least in the context of pursuing the war in Afghanistan.. which I think America's best interests would be to cut and run)

The aid in Pakistan is essential to the war in Afghanistan. Without Pakistan's help.. the war would probably be a lot more costly, not only in economic terms but in terms of human life.

Worst case scenario.. Pakistan's nuclear weapons get into the wrong hands.

Without the aid... Pakistan would probably descend into chaos.

So you see.. the Americans are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do you discontinue aid to the guys who you need to pursue this conflict in Afghanistan? Or do you continue working with the guys whom some of which are secretly working with the enemy?

[YukisUke]

[quote=Ronin4hire;865499]You see nothing wrong with your position? Are you oblivious to pretty much the entire foundation of the Western legal system and Western philosophy?



Um.. I agree with you there.

But you said earlier



THAT is where you're being presumptuous.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

An investigation is a good idea. But I don't know if it's in America's best interest to cut off aid (at least in the context of pursuing the war in Afghanistan.. which I think America's best interests would be to cut and run)

The aid in Pakistan is essential to the war in Afghanistan. Without Pakistan's help.. the war would probably be a lot more costly, not only in economic terms but in terms of human life.

Worst case scenario.. Pakistan's nuclear weapons get into the wrong hands.

Without the aid... Pakistan would probably descend into chaos.

So you see.. the Americans are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Do you discontinue aid to the guys who you need to pursue this conflict in Afghanistan? Or do you continue working with the guys whom some of which are secretly working with the enemy?

That's easy. You still help them with their aid money, but at a price. They have to personally admit that they knew where Osama was all this time and that they helped him remain hidden from the public. Also, they have to give the names of the people they're in cahoots with. Our money will not and should not go to those who consort with the enemy. When you think about it, we're giving them money to help our downfall because part of that money is, without a doubt, being used to fund Al-Qaeda.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by YukisUke

That's easy. You still help them with their aid money, but at a price. They have to personally admit that they knew where Osama was all this time and that they helped him remain hidden from the public. Also, they have to give the names of the people they're in cahoots with. Our money will not and should not go to those who consort with the enemy. When you think about it, we're giving them money to help our downfall because part of that money is, without a doubt, being used to fund Al-Qaeda.

What good would personally admitting that do? Especially if it wasn't true.

There are all sorts of forces within a country that you must take into account.

My opinion is that the Pakistan government at the highest level wants to cooperate with the USA and that they aren't cahoots with anyone. That's based on a simple assessment of what I think the people in power of Pakistan's interests are.

Problem is that you're in charge of a country with a large anti-American sentiment that runs through it.

[Ryzorian]

No matter wich perspective you take Ronin, Pakistan either looks like they were secretly safeguarding the guy or are incompetant boobs. For them really, it's choose your poison.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Ryzorian

No matter wich perspective you take Ronin, Pakistan either looks like they were secretly safeguarding the guy or are incompetant boobs. For them really, it's choose your poison.

Sure.. and your point is?