As Columbine said, of course it would hurt them if I said it directly to them (so I wouldn't, unless asked), but it's a random internet picture, she's not going to hear it. And YOU posted the picture, if you didn't want opinions on it then you shouldn't have posted it.

And I didn't say she wouldn't flatter anyone, I said the outfit wouldn't flatter anyone. And I meant in terms of the typical, general population, not every single person in the entire world.

PVC is hard to pull off. Neon blue lipstick is hard to pull off. Blonde hair when your hair is obviously not blonde naturally is hard to pull off. Liquid eyeliner is hard to pull off. And those type of headresses are difficult to pull off. All these combined are fairly impossible to pull off in my opinion.

In an ideal world, people could be all happy and wear what they want and not be called out for it. But this is far from an ideal world, and people have freedom of speech anyway.

Oh and as a side note: I'm the fashion moderator! I encourgage alternative fashion and love it. I'm allowed to have an opinion on this outfit, just as you are. You'd have every right to like it, and so does the person wearing it.

What just happened?

*stands behind the topic and pushes back onto the rails with all his might*.

*reads the OP's question and sighs, pushing the topic back off the rails*.

There simply isn't going to be a happy ending here.

*flees*.

Good, i'm glad we're clear on that point.

I get your point, and fair enough, it is just my opinion. My one opinion alone doesn't make it so. However the concept of 'ridiculous' is one that is wholly defined by opinion. The more opinions in agreement there are, the more that concept creeps towards fact. That's how I see it. It's not something that you can simply rail against to have removed from society. For a start, doing so would undermine both freedom of speech and a lot of comedy.

But I am NOT harming her. Have I gone to this girl and face-to-face told her I think her clothes suck? Sent her an e-mail? No. As I stipulated, I wouldn't. And if, IF, IF! she were that sensitive, she probably wouldn't be wearing it in the first place. People don't dress to stand out and not expect to get feedback. Some do it precisely for the negative commentary.

No she's not harming me, but then she didn't seek my opinion on it. You did. I like how you almost perfectly quoted yourself in 1) and utterly misquoted any given opinion in the thread for 2). Don't exaggerate our views to fit your argument. And again, you can't tell me which opinions I am allowed to voice or not. As for "half the world", for god's sake, stop putting words in my mouth. I said I was not alone in thinking so. There's certainly more than one opinion in this thread that concurs with mine, so in that I am accurate. So far, you're actually in the minority. You're the only one who disagrees that the outfit is awful.

I'm curious; do you actually think this look flatters her? You said you don't like it, but you've not said if you think it suits her or not. Either way, perhaps all we can do is agree to disagree. I think it's ridiculous, you think we shouldn't say anything one way or the other so as not to offend anyone. Each to their own, right?

Apology accepted. :)

edit: Just checked the link and if it IS a cosplay, then that kind of skews things a little. The outfit should be judged on accuracy instead, as anime characters are rarely conventional and often ridiculous by general observational views. Maybe this is how the character dresses.

let them be!
 

If over weight girls dress up as lolita means that they are more than happy and comfortable with their body and even if ti might not be plesant for us to see we should stop saying comments that will destry their self-steam and let them be happy with their fat and lolita style!

No, I didn't say that.

I said that you have the right to dislike that girl's sense of fashion and express it in a polite way. (which is NOT calling it ridiculous)

Because calling someone (or in her case, the girl's sense of fashion) ridiculous is extremely deteoriating.

I can't just agree with the way you (and alot like you) think @ this particular subject.

But well, yeah. Different people different opinions.

Then perhaps each of you can agree to disagree on this particular point, and move on from this subject?

JasonTakeshi:
I don't know if that's you or your sister/girlfriend or something (or else why you seem to be taking this as the mother of all personal insults) but I and many others think it's ridiculous and we are, despite your objections, free to think that, and express it too.

That's both the downside and the upside with the internet; people's opinions tend to be expressed whether you like them or not. Frankly, whining about it for another two pages is most likely not going to change that opinion nor prevent it from being expressed yet again.

For the record; it doesn't mean that we're brainwashed. The fact is, you can't say an opinion is invalid just because it's not unique like yours.

You'll just have to accept that mostly everybody here thinks it looks ridiculous, and if you feel the need to do some misguided and pointless extrapolation about everybody being fashion-industry brainwashed zombies set out to take over the world, then you'll just have to do that and be wrong.

Peace out. ;)

Seems just like a different view of the word then really. I never thought of 'ridiculous' as being harsh at all, in fact I think it's quite a mild term, but then I guess it's all down in how you interpret its meaning. :) This turned into quite an interesting discussion. It really sums up the difficulties with getting into alternative fashion well and how tricky it is to see the lines between something socially acceptable, and what will just set you up for ridicule and what else again will offend people.

Sorry if we bored you Koir, I didn't realize you'd been involved in the thread before now. Feel free to jump back to the OP's question anytime you like.

*sigh*

This topic was actually surprising me at first, with the reasonable discussion and lack of bashing. Unfortunately that didn`t last.

Please, move on from this or the thread will be closed.

If you read all my topics/replies, you will see that I make a big deal out of something which seems "insignificant". That's what I do mostly.

She's by no means connected to me. And I'm a guy bth.



Do you follow standards? If so, apparently she does NOT match that standards. Now guess what I mean by this.

Yet again, mostly doesn't mean the entire world. Or are you going to vouch for 6 billions?

@Nyororin

Are you saying we are bashing eachother?

This seems a healthy discussion. And we are actually on topic.

You keep saying this, but I'm a Lolita and a cosplayer, and I still think it's awful. And even if I wasn't, it doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid.

It's not my 'sense of fashion,' it's the fact that I personally feel it doesn't suit her. I never said because I think it is makes it so. I said I respect that your opinion might be different, but I'm also allowed to feel it looks silly while you might not.

So therefore, we agree that our opinions are different, and other people might think differently about her outfit.

So this is a dead end. Let's move on. :)

Yes. But keep in mind that just because you think so, it doesn't necessarily make it. Same goes to the other side of the coin.

And to finish it, I actually find it ridiculous. But I felt the need to be white knighting her.

Edit: But hey, don't misunderstand white knighting with trolling.

Early on in this discussion I agreed that Lolita is a potentially attractive look and I don't feel weight/build has much bearing on it.

But personally, outside of an anime convention (as in on the street). I think anyone over the age of about 5 or 6 look pretty ridiculous in the "style". Frankly I don't consider it a style; it is a costume. That is a subtle difference to some, but not to me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "standards" under the circumstances. All I know is I think it looks ludicrous. (And as a kind of nod to the main topic this thread started on, I might add that it has little to do with her "build" and more with the rest of the picture.)

And I'd really appreciate it if you stopped trying to tell me what I'm saying - I already know what I'm saying because I'm saying it. ;)

I haven't tried to "vouch for" or speak for the entire world population, I simply meant most people in this thread (or maybe, in this forum) and I've based that claim on observing replies to that post. I think you're pretty much the only one yet to find much positive things about the whole deal and I just reacted at your seeming attempt to discredit "our" opinions for a wide variety of reasons - most or all of which were bad ones. :)

Now I have to admit I kinda like discussing random things (I have a shocking confession to make: fashion in general interests me as much as it does an average jellyfish) "for fun" once in a while, but I think I'm gonna drop the matter here.

I'm not intending this or anything else I've said as "bashing" (just stating my opinion) and I don't see how it can be construed as such, but I do see that it's kinda... far out from the thread's original topic, so I think this discussion either needs to end or get its own. :D

Just out of interest, would you consider other subcultures to be 'costumes,' such as goth, emo, punk etc? If you don't, then what would you say the difference is between these subcultures and the Lolita subculture?

Judging purely on the frequency of it being seen in the public, those three costume-based styles are more "accepted" than lolita. This is from a purely intellectual viewpoint as I have not see any of the four fashion styles in public myself.

Often it depends on the subculture and how extensively it has been assimilated into the culture. It is also a matter of extremes. There are those who adopt goth or punk styles that are more a caricature and therefore costuming to me than style. Then there are those who truly understand the meaning behind aspects of the appearance and manage to turn it into what I would consider style. For me when someone copy cats to infinite detail, its costuming. When they integrate common attire and elements clearly conveying a message, then you have style. In other words for it to be style (as aoopsing to "styling") you must bring your own personality and creativity to the look. Otherwise you are simply mimicking someone and adopting their style as your costume.

I deal with that vague delineator all the time with the leather community. One person can be wearing full leather and be nothing but "styling", a second one be pure costume, and a third be a person who conveys key elements of the leather-S/M community with style. Its especially true where specific items are adopted by more than one subculture. A dog collar is a prime example of a piece that has multiple meanings and it all too often worn by the totally clueless as a mere, stupid, fashion statement.

Even the changing of elements of my leather wardrobe by one or two pieces can shift me between these levels, and only someone experienced with fashion and the community may see the difference. But if have my leather cap, labrys earring, bar vest and chaps on, the only place it would not look like a costume to someone would be in a very closed environment (leather bar, event, dungeon). If this array didn't fit me personally and my own style, it would look like a costume both in a leather bar and on the street.

I feel the same way about Lolita, Goth, Punk, and the rest. In a specified environment the intensity of a look that would be considered extreme and costume on a public street, would be style in the limited confines of a specific gathering of those with similar interests. And it works in reverse. Having only token symbol of one of the look while attending something specifically for that lifestyle would look like mere "styling" or a fashion statement if they were on a public street.

In the pic of the girl in blue lipstick, there were several elements that made it look more like costuming than someone truly part of a subculture. Yes, the PVC tends to conflict with Lolita. Though I have seen them combined well, its a very rare talent. The bright blue lipstick was a different trend than either Lolita or the PVC. The pastoral setting would have gone with the Lolita, but the PVC, bright blue didn't. And then there was the collar and leash. Sorry but it looked like an afterthought and I immediately wondered how soon it would damage the PVC (that stuff is not as sturdy as it looks). Her size had nothing to do with the effectiveness of the image, only the combinations.

@TalnSG

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. I agree to some extent with what you are saying. Do you think that if a Lolita designed and made his/her own clothing (that isn't an obvious replica), this would be a style rather than a costume? Or combined Lolita with other elements?

PVC/Leather can sometimes (but rarely) be encorporated into Lolita, particularly with the 'ero-loli' look. I've seen a few examples were leather works well in this instance but I can't recall seeing any decent examples were PVC was used.

The girl in the picture is what the Lolita community refer to as 'costume' or 'cosplay' Lolita. They define it like this:

Do you feel you have to encorporate certain lifestyle elements related to the style in order for it to count as a style rather than a costume?

Thinking about it, I find it hard to distinguish the definition between costume and style. Personally, I think Lolita (when not 'cosplay lolita') is a fashion, but it's hard to explain why.

But a costume is when you are dressing up to try and be someone else. A tuxedo can be a costume if I am trying to be, say, James Bond.

I don't think the clothes themselves define whether an outfit is a costume or not, but the intentions of the wearer.

Lady Gaga's outrageous outfits are not generally called "costumes" because they help define her own personality.

Therefore if someone dresses in a lolita style, if she is dressing that way as an expression of her personality, I don't think it is fair to call it a "costume".

It a great idea and one I agree with, but it doesn't always work like that. Sometimes what makes people happy to wear is offensive or inappropriate. For an every-day perspective, the girl in the photo would have to change her clothes before she was allowed to do any one of the three occupations I have.

I think MMM brings up a great point about the intention of the wearer. However, doesn't Lolita often pull on aspects of victorian maid, dolls, little girl, shepherdess, princess type images. In many respects, dressing in Lolita is about creating your own character that is separate from your 'normal' self, so while maybe not a costume per se, it is costumish. Then again Casual and Classic loli's are pretty tame really and aspects of them have been in and out of mainstream fashion for years. You could probably put together an outfit in that style without ever leaving the High Street. The more purchase specific and extravagant a style is, the more it seems costumy to me even if it's not deliberately a costume.

Girls that eat, are a treat.......that was lame..

but seriously. Bigger girls are better than these skinny twigs walking around. Much more attractive to me.

That's kind of offensive, for both bigger and smaller girls imo. Why assume that skinny girls don't eat, and bigger girls eat their hearts out? Also, I'm skinny, and being called a twig is as offensive as calling a bigger girl a cow. Have your opinion if you want, but please refrain from offensive terms.

Besides, the point isn't who you find attractive, it's who can pull off this particular fashion style better.

If the wearer is trying to pretend to be something else, then I think it is safe to call Lolita a "costume", but is she is wearing the clothes as an extension of her personality, then I don't think this would be fair.

I guess it is hard to decide it is good or not or overweight girl wear lolita, it depends on the design of the dress and the whole look of the person who wear lolita.

I definitely agree from the wearer's perspective. But the wearer and the observer may have completely different perspectives of the same image. For Lady Gaga her attire is her style. For viewers its sometimes more of a costume.

Its not fair, but the term "costume" carries a negative connotation it doesn't always deserve. I will put on something I could not describe as anything but a costume and look quite appropriate to my surroundings. There is nothing wrong with it being a just costume, as long as I don't use the costume to make others believe something is real that is not.

Maybe the negativity arises because some people adopt a costume to fit in with something or someone they have no real understanding of. Some people have no sense of respect or conscience about misrepresenting themselves in real life (as opposed to costuming such as at anime conventions).

Deciding when something moves between the two is very subjective, and heavily affected by the person's own thoughts, feelings and even previous experiences. And as Miss Misa mentioned - extremely hard to explain to others at times.

How big are we talking here? Like a little chubby or morbily obese mario?
Chubby always beats stick girls.

corsets on overweight women/girls are a no no I think it also depends on what style of dress they wear (chubby girls) some styles look better on a full body and some styles fit better on a thinner frame. I think it all depends, both look great just know what looks right.

The only thing that troubles me about bigger girls is when they don't know what size they are and wear clothes that are to small. wear lolita all you want as long as you know your measurements and your not falling out of it. that goes for everyone else too. the only thing that ruins a style is when people wear it poorly.

I think as long as you look good you can wear anything.

My issue is with being big in general. I'm not a fatty, but 5'10'' usually wearing a US14, so I'm just on the edge of what is catered for. Some Ls from regular Gothic stores have been about a a size too large, whereas if it's an Asian store I'll need all the XX's I can get.

But my problem isn't so much finding clothes that fit (there's always SOMEthing ...maybe not the ideal thing, but something similar) but wearing them. I feel comfortable being over 6' tall in Visual Kei gear with 6'' heels and trousers or a long skirt, but I'm conscious of my curvy legs and height in a Lolita dress. I feel like I should be wearing more "powerful" clothing than something so cute, because of my height first and my size second. But I love the fashion so much, and I think I look good in it, but I feel a bit awkward.

What does anyone think to that? Can you be chubby AND tall and pull off Lolita?

I realize Mana towers over anyone in his heels, but he's thin, so...

Sure you can! I would try to avoid corset's with the opening in front (I hope that made sense) since they enlargen your breast area... And make sure all the clothes are exactly your size, not slightly to large, or slightly to small... Especially if you're wearing kimino's...

What really matters in a style, is that you have confidence... You can look absolutely awsome if you have confidence, though with a lack of confidence, it's just doomed to fail...

Some of the lolita's I know, looks super awsome, even though they uses L, or XL...

And Japanese Lolita clothes, ugh... They looks super awsome! But the sizes are just... Not fitted for non-asians... The japanese brand Kera has some decent sizes though^^ But not much Lolita wear...

Aw yes, Mana*sight's dreamily*

I think it's almost always a matter of personal taste, some people prefer slimmer women whereas others prefer women of a larger size. The key thing is that taste in people doesn't translate to people bullying other people as a consequence of how they look. I know this sounds old fashioned and perhaps even a little cliched, but it's really important to judge a person on the content of their character.

To be honest, style and fashion just aren't designed for "large" people. When companies enter a market to sell their clothing, they immediately target the small-average range. You will find niche companies who design larger clothing, but like I said, they're niche companies operating in a larger market, no pun intended.
This is not to say that larger people can't wear certain styles, however, many times they have to alter the styles to make them more flattering. Extremely thin girls have a hard time as well, but it's easier to dress a thin girl than a large girl when pertaining to high fashion.

That's true, but also perhaps a failing in the fashion industry as well as a potential cause for health issues for those persons naturally predisposed to be a little larger. It isn't neccessarily true that a person is always healthier if they are thinner; a fatter person, as a consequence of the extra energy and insulation is more likely to survive a long winter where there is comparative scarcity of food than a thinner person. Hence the need for body fat on larger aquatic animals existing around the antartic regions; seals, whales and so on. In temperate climates there isn't really any need for this extra fat and in warmer climates the extra insulation is a definite disadvantage.

Where we have an increasingly internationalised fashion scene, it seems somewhat unfair to favour one sort of person when people can look very different according to various social, economic and environmental factors. My sister, for example, is medium sized girl and an actress in the UK, I don't think that any reasonable person would take a look at her and call her fat, but in her earlier years she experienced some bullying, which when combined with the images she found in her fashion magazines, convinced her that firstly she was fat and that second she had to take drastic measures to correct a problem she didn't have. This resulted in her suffering from a serious eating disorder. She isn't alone, I'm sure.

Perhaps it would make better economic as well as health sense if the fashion industry as a whole marketed their products to a larger section of the world's population?

Like I said, I, personally, don't have a problem finding clothes. That's not to say it's easy - just try shopping for a pair of pants with me! XD - but I'm not of the "Damn the Evil Fashion Industry" persuasion. I realize it's made for thin people, and though it pisses me off occasionally, I'm grateful when things do fit me because it means I can be a part of the stylish crowd as opposed to wearing tents.

I'm also quite confident when I know I look good. But I think it's more of an issue than when I just dress "goth" or "punk", read as: a style I and the people around me know better, because Visual Kei and Lolita are relatively unknown here in the West, and are only understood as a subgenre of Goth, so people are less likely to understand. I'm fine with causing a scene, but if you have the "Wtf is that?!" reaction to deal with in ADDITION to "OMG GOTH LOL!!" you do have to be supersure of your look to stay confident. I can only deal with so much negativity from people at one time. ;)

Another issue is, of course, finding out what's accepted within the scene. Hence my query. I can cope if I walk into a club where there's a Visual Kei event and some people glare, cause you always get people checking out each other's outfits. But I like knowing the general consensus first to be able to guess what the reaction will be, so I can be prepared.

Not to seem harsh, but your first paragraph really is BS. It's unfortunate that most people do not understand that not everyone is built the same way, but your justification is almost hilarious, and if I were a large person, I would probably feel insulted if my counter-defense for being big is that I can survive bad weather, just like whales.

The "too skinny" argument is also pretty crappy. Being too skinny can cause health complications, but we're talking almost malnourished people, on average. Whereas someone can be as low as 15-25 lbs overweight and already begin to enter dangerous territory.
I like to use the "Money doesn't buy you happiness" analogy. I happen to disagree with that statement. The reason being, for every one filthy rich person you can find that's unhappy, I can find 1,000 impoverished people who are just as unhappy. Just as you can find one person who is skinny to the point of health complications, and I can find you 1,000 people who are pre-diabetics or worse. It's all relative.

As for changing the market to fit bigger people, would this be a positive or a negative? All things equal, most large people are fat, not just "big boned." So would we be encouraging the idea that it is OK to be fat, and that you'll be rewarded with alternative clothing styles no matter how much weight you want to put on? All while isolating the "small" crowd and simple reversing the roles?

It's unfortunate that your sister was bullied though, especially if she wasn't even that big to begin with. People's perception of what qualifies as being big is starting to become skewed.