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masaegu 08-26-2011 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 877546)
I think it was explained to me one time that は in this sort of て construction functions to place emphasis.

I think it was explained to me in Japanese while I was studying in Tokyo at university, so that may be why I'm a bit weak on the structure. The reason I think I was taught about it in Japan was because I remember we watched an old 小津安二郎 film called 生まれてはみたけれど, and I was confused by the function of は in the title.

Could you explain a bit the function of 〜ては? Or is it "special" when followed by みる?

I am comfortable with constructions like 〜てはならない and 〜てはいけない, but those are idiomatic, so I can't explain what は does there other than saying 必要な助詞だ。

Yes, it is for emphasis.

In the phrase 「来てはみた」, the 「来る」 part is being emphasized in the sense that the person ended up with "just coming" and not doing or finding anything good.

I presume that what is puzzling to you is the positioning as well as the function of the 「は」 in phrases consisting of two verbs.

「変な音が聞こえたので来てみました。
来てはみましたが、特になにもなかったようです。」

"I came over because I had heard a strange sound.
Though I came over, there seemed to be nothing wrong."

You went there expecting something but there was nothing. You ended up wasting some time and energy.
________

「生まれてはみたけれど、この人生苦労の連続だった。 」

"I was born (expecting good things) but my life was full of hardships."
________

The 「は」 gives the phrase the nuance that you gave it a try anyway even though the results may not have been satisfactory. 「みる」 is also indispensible in creating this nuance because, as you know, it means "to try and see".

This 「は」 is also used in the middle of two-part verb phrases that end in 「いく」、「くる」and 「おく」 as well.

「雨が降ってはきたがすぐに止んだ。」
「探しにはいったが見つからなかった。」
「冷蔵庫に入れてはおくけど、そんなに速く冷たくなら ないよ。」

masaegu 08-26-2011 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahoel (Post 877551)
Hi there,

I visited my parents in Suriname (South America, yes we also take our shoes off), and their car seems gives a unknown message in Japanese. Could you help me with this?
The sign above states something the temperature. But the Japenese text below is unknown to me.

Thanks in advance.

It says "Slow Down".

KellyMD 08-26-2011 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 877442)
Read carefully and you will logically find that:

「地味で内向的でつまらない自分」  「自分をしばる自分」

「から」 is used twice. 「解放される気がする」 is omitted right after the second one. Think about why it can it be omitted. It is because what is said in front of each 「から」 is similar to each other.

「自分をしばる」 means "tying oneself to the world within the little shell", "to control one's own passions", "to repress one's emotions", etc.

Ahh, I see! Thank you so very much yet again, masaegu :).

JohnBraden 08-26-2011 07:45 PM

As part of my ongoing Japanese lessons, I was given a reading exercise and had to answer questions from the text. I translated it the best I could and i was wondering if anyone here would be willing to grade me on this task.

The text is as follows:

ジョンミルズさんはABCフーズのしゃいんです。 ミルズ さんは日本の食べ物が大好きですが、そのなかでおにぎ りがいちばんすきです。かいがいではおにぎりよりおす しのほうがゆうめいです。 ABCフーズはかいがいむ けのおにぎりのかいはつプロジエクトをつくりした。  ミルズさんはそのプロジエクトのチーフです。

Let's see how close I am to the actual text:

John Mills is an employee at ABC Foods. Mills-san likes Japanese food and onigiri the best among them. For foreigners, though, sushi is more famous than onigiri. ABC Foods produced foreign-oriented onigiri in a development project. Mills-san in the project chief.

I know I didn't do it word for word, or as close to that as possible. I took what I understood and translated it to what would make the best sense in my view. How correct was I?

KyleGoetz 08-26-2011 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBraden (Post 877572)
As part of my ongoing Japanese lessons, I was given a reading exercise and had to answer questions from the text. I translated it the best I could and i was wondering if anyone here would be willing to grade me on this task.

The text is as follows:

ジョンミルズさんはABCフーズのしゃいんです。 ミルズ さんは日本の食べ物が大好きですが、そのなかでおにぎ りがいちばんすきです。かいがいではおにぎりよりおす しのほうがゆうめいです。 ABCフーズはかいがいむ けのおにぎりのかいはつプロジエクトをつくりした。  ミルズさんはそのプロジエクトのチーフです。

Let's see how close I am to the actual text:

John Mills is an employee at ABC Foods. Mills-san likes Japanese food and onigiri the best among them. For foreigners, though, sushi is more famous than onigiri. ABC Foods produced foreign-oriented onigiri in a development project. Mills-san in the project chief.

I know I didn't do it word for word, or as close to that as possible. I took what I understood and translated it to what would make the best sense in my view. How correct was I?

Here, I don't think "for foreigners" is a good translation. I know you said you weren't translating literally, but there really is a difference between the ENglish and Japanese. Foreigners living in Japan count as "foreigners," but wouldn't in the original because the original is talking about "outside Japan." A foreigner living in Japan would be "foreigner" in your English but not 海外で like in the original.

"Outside of Japan, sushi is more famous than onigiri."

Also, 開発 is development, not production. You might try something like "ABC foods is making a project to develop onigiri for foreign markets."

Also, did you mean to type をお作りする instead of を作りする? Just curious because I didn't know you could just do 作りする by itself. I'm assuming the blurb was written by someone within the ABC company, since otherwise using 謙譲語 wouldn't make much sense.

But, in general, I think you got all the important parts. (But why did you use "-san" in your English translation?)

JohnBraden 08-26-2011 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 877575)
Here, I don't think "for foreigners" is a good translation. I know you said you weren't translating literally, but there really is a difference between the ENglish and Japanese. Foreigners living in Japan count as "foreigners," but wouldn't in the original because the original is talking about "outside Japan." A foreigner living in Japan would be "foreigner" in your English but not 海外で like in the original.

"Outside of Japan, sushi is more famous than onigiri."

Also, 開発 is development, not production. You might try something like "ABC foods is making a project to develop onigiri for foreign markets."

Also, did you mean to type をお作りする instead of を作りする? Just curious because I didn't know you could just do 作りする by itself. I'm assuming the blurb was written by someone within the ABC company, since otherwise using 謙譲語 wouldn't make much sense.

But, in general, I think you got all the important parts. (But why did you use "-san" in your English translation?)

Thanks, Kyle, for answering. I now understand the "outside of Japan" when referring to かいがい (overseas).

As far as your next query, I made a mistake and it should have read つくりました。 I'm still having a hard time learning new kanji and I usually don't use the convert option on the keyboard. I'm still keeping with hiragana and katakana unless I've learned the kanji within the word, if you can understand what I mean.

I used -san out of habit. Our instructor keeps telling us to use it and I don't really know why.... 

Thanks for your prompt response. Little by little I'm learning a bit more and, as time passes, I respect and admire those who know so much that much more.

KyleGoetz 08-26-2011 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBraden (Post 877577)
Thanks, Kyle, for answering. I now understand the "outside of Japan" when referring to かいがい (overseas).

Just a technical point (that you probably already know). 海外 literally means something like "overseas" if you translate it kanji-by-kanji. However, if you refer to the 海外 of America, Mexico, Canada, and other countries located in the Americas are still 海外. So, for example, if you take a vacation from California to Mexico, it's still called 海外旅行 even though you cross a land border to get there. But, in context, I can recognize it's talking about "outside Japan." Actually, if we were talking about hot dogs and never mentioned where the speaker was located or contextualized the passage, we might assume 海外で was referring to "outside the United States."

Quote:

As far as your next query, I made a mistake and it should have read つくりました。 I'm still having a hard time learning new kanji and I usually don't use the convert option on the keyboard. I'm still keeping with hiragana and katakana unless I've learned the kanji within the word, if you can understand what I mean.
I think that's fine. Also, you'll avoid what I call "hyperkanjification." Well, as of ten seconds ago, when I invented the word, that's what I call it ;)

Quote:

I used -san out of habit. Our instructor keeps telling us to use it and I don't really know why.... 
That's weird. It makes you sound like Mister Miyagi, Daniel-san.

Quote:

Thanks for your prompt response. Little by little I'm learning a bit more
Keep on truckin' and you'll see great improvements. My opinion is that progress is consistent until you get to be somewhere in your intermediate level where lack of kanji knowledge really slows down your progress (you need to read things written in Japanese about Japanese grammar or as examples of Japanese like newspaper articles, and every other kanji you have to look up). Then you learn a crapload of kanji and explode in improvements again.

Good luck!

KyleGoetz 08-26-2011 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 877556)
Yes, it is for emphasis.

In the phrase 「来てはみた」, the 「来る」 part is being emphasized in the sense that the person ended up with "just coming" and not doing or finding anything good.

I presume that what is puzzling to you is the positioning as well as the function of the 「は」 in phrases consisting of two verbs.

「変な音が聞こえたので来てみました。
来てはみましたが、特になにもなかったようです。」

"I came over because I had heard a strange sound.
Though I came over, there seemed to be nothing wrong."

You went there expecting something but there was nothing. You ended up wasting some time and energy.
________

「生まれてはみたけれど、この人生苦労の連続だった。 」

"I was born (expecting good things) but my life was full of hardships."
________

The 「は」 gives the phrase the nuance that you gave it a try anyway even though the results may not have been satisfactory. 「みる」 is also indispensible in creating this nuance because, as you know, it means "to try and see".

This 「は」 is also used in the middle of two-part verb phrases that end in 「いく」、「くる」and 「おく」 as well.

「雨が降ってはきたがすぐに止んだ。」
「探しにはいったが見つからなかった。」
「冷蔵庫に入れてはおくけど、そんなに速く冷たくなら ないよ。」

Thank you. This makes sense.

masaegu 08-27-2011 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 877585)
Thank you. This makes sense.

Not to confuse you, but the particle 「も」 can also be placed in the middle of the verb phrases we just discussed.

Suppose you have a gross-looking pie in front of you and you already dislike it even before taking a bite. But you decided to give it a try anyway. You may say afterwards:

「見るからにまずそうなパイだった。食べてみたが、やはりまずかった。」

hyperweirdness 08-27-2011 06:08 AM

quick question.. just wondering what the - is.
for example ヘEメ―ルを

any help will be great thanks.

masaegu 08-27-2011 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hyperweirdness (Post 877612)
quick question.. just wondering what the - is.
for example ヘEメ―ルを

any help will be great thanks.

It is a symbol indicating that the preceding syllable (the 「メ」 in this case) is elongated in pronunciation.

This is important because the wrong usage will change the meaning of the word entirely:

ビル = building
ビール = beer

レザー = leather
レーザー = laser

メル = Mel (as in "Mel Gibson")
メール = email

hyperweirdness 08-27-2011 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 877613)
It is a symbol indicating that the preceding syllable (the 「メ」 in this case) is elongated in pronunciation.

thank you very much.

Rahoel 08-27-2011 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 877557)
It says "Slow Down".

Thanks, now we know it was warning us, and when we didn't listen it did it on its own.

KyleGoetz 08-27-2011 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 877604)
Not to confuse you, but the particle 「も」 can also be placed in the middle of the verb phrases we just discussed.

Suppose you have a gross-looking pie in front of you and you already dislike it even before taking a bite. But you decided to give it a try anyway. You may say afterwards:

「見るからにまずそうなパイだった。食べてみたが、やはりまずかった。」

Thanks!

Don't worry about confusing me with simple grammar points; I'm at a level now where a new grammar point given to me isn't confusing. It's when I encounter new stuff in the wild and Google isn't helping to solve the problem (i.e., the usual search for "CONFUSING_THING 文法 説明" doesn't reveal useful information). I tried to google ては(みる) 文法 and the searches didn't turn up real grammar help. Just examples.

Does も place even more of an emphasis on the preceding verb than は? Maybe that's the wrong way of describing the difference, but it's my first attempt at integrating 〜てもみる into my knowledge.

masaegu 08-27-2011 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 877669)
 
Does も place even more of an emphasis on the preceding verb than は? Maybe that's the wrong way of describing the difference, but it's my first attempt at integrating 〜てもみる into my knowledge.

No, it only places the same amount of emphasis. By using 「も」, you are describing the second or third action that you took after the first action.

As in my example, you kinda already disliked the pie from its look but you went ahead and ate it before arriving at your final decision that it did not taste good. You are saying "I not only looked (action #1) but also ate it (action #2)."

Kaiju 08-27-2011 03:00 PM

Translator
 
Hi, would anyone who is fairly fluent in Japanese be interested in translating? We like to do older tokusatsu shows, but recently are interested in doing some other things as well, such as Xenos, Eko Eko Azarak series, Devil Shadow and other things. We are laid back and don't demand anything like setting time limits etc. We all just do this as a hobby, whenever our own personal times will allow. You can check out some of our stuff here : • Index page Thanks. Hope to hear from someone.

AmgedIsmail 08-30-2011 11:04 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello,
What is the best way to translate Japanese into English?
I don't think Google Translation is helpful at all and doesn't translate in the right meaning.

Here take a look at this picture taken from a game...
I extracted the text from the picture, so can you please check if my letters are of the same in the picture.

キミこそ ユダヤのよげんにある
まかいから あくまを よびだし

The Google Translation was:-
In fact what I have Jewish Kimi
Call or write the devil from

masaegu 08-30-2011 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878121)
What is the best way to translate Japanese into English?

Simple. Study your butt off.

KyleGoetz 08-30-2011 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878121)
Hello,
What is the best way to translate Japanese into English?
I don't think Google Translation is helpful at all and doesn't translate in the right meaning.

Here take a look at this picture taken from a game...
I extracted the text from the picture, so can you please check if my letters are of the same in the picture.

キミこそ ユダヤのよげんにある
まかいから あくまを よびだし

The Google Translation was:-
In fact what I have Jewish Kimi
Call or write the devil from

Your transcription is correct. And as for the best way to translate, everyone has their own best way. You'll have to develop yours for yourself. As an illustration, I tend to read a sentence, understand it in my head, and then put it into literal English. Later, I reconsider how to make it flow better. (This is, of course, for literary translation.)

MMM is a professional translator. He has better opinions on this than I, most likely.

masaegu 08-30-2011 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878121)
Hello,
What is the best way to translate Japanese into English?
I don't think Google Translation is helpful at all and doesn't translate in the right meaning.

Here take a look at this picture taken from a game...
I extracted the text from the picture, so can you please check if my letters are of the same in the picture.

キミこそ ユダヤのよげんにある
まかいから あくまを よびだし

"You summon the devil from the devildom of the Jewish Prophecy."

Quote:

The Google Translation was:-
In fact what I have Jewish KimiCall or write the devil from
Forget Google Translate! What's the use of it if it cannot even recognize the simplest word 「キミ = you」??

Just study Japanese and you will be better than Google in a few years.

AmgedIsmail 08-30-2011 01:59 PM

The reason it didn't recognize the meaning that it only wrote the pronunciation or syllable of that word:

ki = キ
mi = ミ

So, when I study the language how can I understand the meaning of the word?
and why didn't google translate it?

And you say in a few years I wil be better than Google!!!!
In a few years!!!!!???
Will it take that long??!!!!

masaegu 08-30-2011 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878147)
The reason it didn't recognize the meaning that it only wrote the pronunciation or syllable of that word:

ki = キ
mi = ミ

So, when I study the language how can I understand the meaning of the word?
and why didn't google translate it?

And you say in a few years I wil be better than Google!!!!
In a few years!!!!!???
Will it take that long??!!!!

Lotta words except a simple "Thanks!". Just compare my translation with Google's and ask yourself if 「キミ」 was the only problem Google had in translating the whole phrase.

FYI, it was not only 「キミ」 that the original gave you in kana. In fact, it gave you all the words in kana. Thus, your reasoning fails.

AmgedIsmail 08-30-2011 02:14 PM

Well,
How would you advice me?
How to start learning the language?
Where to start?
I already knew that first I should remember the Hiragana and Katakana letters..

KyleGoetz 08-30-2011 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878147)
And you say in a few years I wil be better than Google!!!!
In a few years!!!!!???
Will it take that long??!!!!

To be fair, you couldn't have actually expected to spend a few months and be better than a computer with near limitless storage capacity...

Edit: Although I guess that's not completely fair. You will probably never be as good as Google at recognizing some vocabulary (I still have to use Google to pull the definitions of some words after I've completed a crossword puzzle (I always forget the meaning of words like "vale" and "dale"—one means "valley" or something, I think)), but give it a year or two and your grasp of grammar will be better, too (to the extent we can say a computer has a "grasp" of grammar).

AmgedIsmail 08-30-2011 02:23 PM

You are talking to me like I already know everything about the language..!!!
I just like to start learning it, and therefore how do you expect me to ask myself and know the meaning of the phrase??!!
How even I am supposed to know if it is even a phrase??

And see!! at the begining you didn't even welcome me in a nice way, you just instantly gave me this reply: Simple. Study your butt off.

And I am just a new member here and would like to learn this language..

JohnBraden 08-30-2011 02:49 PM

Would 三日三月 be the correct way to express the 3rd of March in kanji?

KyleGoetz 08-30-2011 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnBraden (Post 878155)
Would 三日三月 be the correct way to express the 3rd of March in kanji?

flip it: 三月三日
Japanese goes "most significant to least significant" (YYYYMMDD).

KyleGoetz 08-30-2011 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878151)
You are talking to me like I already know everything about the language..!!!
I just like to start learning it, and therefore how do you expect me to ask myself and know the meaning of the phrase??!!
How even I am supposed to know if it is even a phrase??

And see!! at the begining you didn't even welcome me in a nice way, you just instantly gave me this reply: Simple. Study your butt off.

And I am just a new member here and would like to learn this language..

There are a billion threads detailing how to start learning Japanese; it's the second most common question asked by people with less than ten posts, behind only "I want a tattoo please translate hope/chastity/virtue/Zen." Try the search function on this page. It's at the top. Then, if you still have questions, please ask again.

And welcome!

JohnBraden 08-30-2011 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 878156)
flip it: 三月三日
Japanese goes "most significant to least significant" (YYYYMMDD).

Would that hold true in 'conversation' as well? If I were to say, "I'm going on the 3rd of March." would it still be flipped? Or is the flip more for official purposes, such as dates? I know in Europe it's dd/mm/yyyy, while in the States it's mm/dd/yyyy. If Japan is yyyy/mm/dd, is that only when expressed in numeral fashion or is it in Kanki as well?

KyleGoetz 08-30-2011 04:07 PM

I can't recall having ever heard anyone say the date before the month ever. It's always 三月三日に行くつもりです or something similar.

Is it possible you've encountered the set phrase 三日三月三年(みっかみつきさんねん)?

JohnBraden 08-30-2011 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 878163)
I can't recall having ever heard anyone say the date before the month ever. It's always 三月三日に行くつもりです or something similar.

Is it possible you've encountered the set phrase 三日三月三年(みっかみつきさんねん)?

Thanks Kyle, but no, that's not the situation. Your initial response should have been all I needed. Thanks! I'll remember it now..:)

ficium 08-30-2011 06:13 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Hello i am new , and i must say that i find this forum really interesting , as i am studying japanese as amateur , a good idea.
Anyway i need some help with the messages in this image if someone could translate it, would be super , for me it is just too far . Thanks

masaegu 08-30-2011 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficium (Post 878172)
Hello i am new , and i must say that i find this forum really interesting , as i am studying japanese as amateur , a good idea.
Anyway i need some help with the messages in this image if someone could translate it, would be super , for me it is just too far . Thanks

"You will be awarded with bonus Experience Points if you enter the dungeon that corresponds to a channel."

"Notice"

"Failed to receive channel information.
Press Renewal button."

ficium 08-30-2011 07:14 PM

thanks a lot, you're very kind

AmgedIsmail 08-31-2011 06:12 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Can you translate this please?

KyleGoetz 08-31-2011 01:53 PM

Give it a try yourself, first. That's how we do things around here.

AmgedIsmail 08-31-2011 02:33 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Thanks so much....
Remember that you translated for someone who posted before I post this one and it was also a picture, and you then tell me try yourself....
As a matter of that I don't know how to translate and I posted the pictures to ask for instant help and that is the reason why I am asking for translation, and if I am indeed expert in the language or learnt some of it at least why I would ask you around for help???
I only ask the god to make you of better help!!

Any way one last question here.....
That all the machine translator all over the internet have given this translation for this text:
なれはー人前
ある日のこと。 アルフレッ ド王子は
王様に呼び出きれました。
やんちゃなァル王子のことですから
きっと、 大変な騒ぎになるに違ぃあ
りませんよ。
Has become public over One day. Prince Alfred Calls to the King expired. University level is that of a prince from naughty Surely be in trouble in a lot of difference Ia I Rimasen.

Taken from this picture:

So, both human translator and machine translator wont help me!
Anyway, thanks to both of you!
And goodluck for the great help...

ATLbengoshi 08-31-2011 09:30 PM

i've been out of the translating game for a while, but the gist is:

my coming of age
one day prince alfred was summoned by the king. prince al was quite mischievous, so this was sure to cause quite a disturbance.

the only thing i'm not sure about is why the "one day" part is separated. i'm guessing it has to do with the particular type of writing or storytelling?

KyleGoetz 08-31-2011 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmgedIsmail (Post 878269)
Thanks so much....
Remember that you translated for someone who posted before I post this one and it was also a picture, and you then tell me try yourself....
As a matter of that I don't know how to translate and I posted the pictures to ask for instant help and that is the reason why I am asking for translation, and if I am indeed expert in the language or learnt some of it at least why I would ask you around for help???
I only ask the god to make you of better help!!

Any way one last question here.....
That all the machine translator all over the internet have given this translation for this text:
なれはー人前
ある日のこと。 アルフレッ ド王子は
王様に呼び出きれました。
やんちゃなァル王子のことですから
きっと、 大変な騒ぎになるに違ぃあ
りませんよ。
Has become public over One day. Prince Alfred Calls to the King expired. University level is that of a prince from naughty Surely be in trouble in a lot of difference Ia I Rimasen.

Taken from this picture:

So, both human translator and machine translator wont help me!
Anyway, thanks to both of you!
And goodluck for the great help...

You're welcome. Take your bad, entitled attitude somewhere else.

AmgedIsmail 08-31-2011 10:37 PM

I am also proud that you don't have a nice attitude towards new guests and members as well.
I had expected to have a nicer reply from you so far...
Change your attitude a little bit...

I am off.....


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