Interracial Relationships
 

Hey! I'm a new face on this forum but I wanted to start out my interaction with a bit of a difficult question. I'm an African American woman and I plan to move to Japan in 2011 to "make a new start" first teaching and then moving on to other positions. I don't plan to come back to the states for quite a while to say the least. haha I know that there are more interracial relationships between Japanese women and foreign men, but what about the other way around? What are the chances that a Japanese man will date and marry a girl of African American decent? Any success stories?? Please share them!

Thanks in advance for all of your comments on this matter. I hope there are many!

I do not think you need to hear success stories to encourage you. It may depend a lot on where you live, but if you are sociable and outgoing you should have no problem. I do think being able to speak Japanese well would help though.
One think I would take note of though is that men may face different social pressures from their families than women, which could make it hard for some to go outside of what is expected of them. Personally I feel this is a big reason for why it seems that so many more Japanese women than men seem to be interested in studying abroad and learning English (from what I have seen).

Why so many people outside of Japan keep blindly believing this myth is a big myth to me. The truth is "the other way around" wins by a landslide. In fact, there is even no comparison.

If you read Japanese:
"同じく2009年人口動態統計年報によれば、国際結婚の相� ��の主な出身国籍は、配偶者女性（夫が日本人）では、� ��国（12,733）、フィリピン（5,755）、韓国・北朝鮮（4,113 ）、タイ（1,225）、ブラジル（273）、アメリカ（179）、� ��ルー（93）、イギリス（56）、その他の国（2,320）であ� ��、配偶者男性（妻が日本人）では、韓国・北朝鮮（1,87 9）、アメリカ（1,453）、中国（986）、イギリス（367）、 ブラジル（290）、フィリピン（156）、ペルー（90）、タ� ��（58）、その他の国（2,367）である[6]。
"
Quoted from Wiki.

It is because it is mostly westerners (women) that ask this question.

So you're saying that there are way more Japanese men that date and marry Western or non-Japanese women? This is definitely the first time that I've heard about that, although I'm not complaining I guess. :vsign:

Western women, like me for example, ask that question a lot because what I see when I walk out of my door, turn on my T.V., surf the web, even when I was in Japan (although I'd get hit on by the occasional Japanese guy), is Japanese women and foreign men. I do know of a few couples that are the other way around (even African American woman and Japanese guy) so I know it can happen and does happen sometimes. But, to me, it just wasn't very common. Or, at least, I didn't think it was.

I'm still looking on my Japanese language skills but from what I could make out from the Wiki clip, that's very interesting indeed. Was that just dating or marriage?

No, he was saying that there are more Japanese men in international marriages, but the majority of those marriages are with other asian women. Chinese, Korea, Filipino etc.
The women dating the Western men far out number the men dating Western women.

Some men, if they aren't completely intimidated by you, will see you as a huge status symbol, a trophy gf/wife.
What you need to ask yourself is if you're comfortable being with a stereotypical Japanese man, because while he may not behave like one at first, it may come out as he gets older/lazier/pressured-by-friends.

Oh, and by the way.
There is only one race. The human race. :cool:

This is because for one, the figures are for those continuing to live in Japan, and secondly because I think it is pretty easy to see the relatively low number of marriages between Japanese men and women not of Asian descent.

In international marriages where one side is from a "Western" country, it seems the overwhelming trend is to move to that country. This is doubly true when the "international" side is the husband - there is quite a flow of Japanese wives to other countries... Japanese husbands - not nearly as many.

I am a member of a few communities for 国際結婚 (not really an active participant... but that is beside the point) - It is very easy to see the difference between the numbers staying in Japan and leaving based upon where the non-Japanese partner is from, and which side is Japanese.
In the case of one side being from a "western" country, I would say about 80% of the Japanese husband couples stay in Japan... While about 30% of the Japanese wife couples do.

What I am trying to say is that those figures end up more truly reflecting about 90% of the marriages between Japanese men and foreign women, but only about 30% of those between Japanese women and foreign men. (Marriages registered outside Japan tend not to be included, but are recognized in the case of later residency in Japan. As they are not registered in Japan, they don`t appear in the figures.)

Even if the percentages weren`t incredibly skewed - there are still nearly 10 times the number of marriages between non-Asian men and Japanese women.

I know several women who eventually moved to other countries after getting married, and they tell stories of huge communities of Japanese wives - and the amazement when they encounter a Japanese husband as it`s just so strange and out of the ordinary.

Do you think there are Japanese men in Japan who would see an African-American woman as a "trophy wife"?

Does that concept even exist in Japan?

Yeah I have a few friends here who ask me if I have black (women) friends they could go out with.
I'm not 100% on the trophy concept, but at times it does seem that way, I could be wrong honestly.

EDIT:
I just want to add that given how few black women are in Japan, it doesn't take much of a fraction of Japanese men to be attracted to them to completely create a deficit of women lol

I am thinking that maybe it is more likely an interest in something that is very rare in Japan, but not as a "trophy".

A trophy wife is generally considered a beautiful woman in her 20s who doesn't want kids married a rich man in his 50s or above.

Hmm yeah you're right, I'm thinking more of a status symbol.

So I guess, by MMM's definition, it would be safe to say that NO WOMAN would be a trophy wife to the Japanese man then, right? When I read RealJames's comment about that, I was just thinking about them showing off a foreign woman that is a pretty darn rare catch in Japan.

It is true. When I lived in Japan, other than the black girls I went to school with (one from Africa and one from France) I saw a black person a month or not even if I didn't go to the bigger city that month. Needless to say, I got a lot of stares. But surprising, I got a lot of attention from Japanese men (unfortunately I had a boyfriend in the states to nothing happened). Even a group of high school boys where calling out to me one day (that was funny). But that doesn't tell me if it would end there or would they really think of something more serious, marriage.

I guess the times are changing little by little and it's starting to depend a little more on the individual.

RealJames you are absolutely right though. There is only one race in the world. Only the mind makes us truly different.

I don't think that is what I said, but let's go back to what a "trophy wife" is: generally it is a much younger, traditionally beautiful woman that an older, less attractive but rich man can land because he can give her the lifestyle she wants.

Obviously these are superficial relationships, and is why you have very rich men, like Donald Trump, who have been married multiple times.

So there are two questions: 1) Does this happen in Japan? 2) Would an African American woman fit the description?

1) I don't know. I think men like Donald Trump need to be married as it is part of what is expected of them, like owning a limo or a private jet. It is a part of being a complete man (in that world of thinking). I don't know if that is as true in Japan... private lives are much more private, and infidelity, casual dating and discreet services can take place with little fear of exposure usually.

2) The idea of a trophy is it sits on the mantle, is nice to look at, but keeps her mouth shut. My impression is that almost any foreign woman would have a hard time fitting that IMAGE.

I am not sure what circles you plan on running around in, but I don't know any men in Japan who dated a woman just to show her off to his friends. That would be rather superficial.

So you didn't answer your own second question.... You basically confirmed what I said before about how NO WOMEN of the western world, black, white, American Asian, or otherwise, would fit the description of a "Trophy Wife" in Japan because of our personality and not our skin color. Your right, that would be superficial and doesn't really happen that often in Japanese society not even with Japanese couples (it would be too much like bragging). So in reality, it's not about being African American but being Western　かな？

I don't think I ever said that I, personally, knew any men that liked to show off their women. I said that's what I thought about RealJames comment. However, I will say that the times are, indeed, changing and Japanese men in my generation (ages 18 - 28)are starting to be a lot more open minded about things. I guess I'll see for sure when I go back, huh?

I'm gonna place my bets on:

If you come here looking for a nice man to marry you, and if your Japanese is good enough to be a housewife, and if you are comfortable with playing that role.
Then, you can get hitched and be a part of this society almost completely, with the usual gaijin disclaimers, of course.

Trophy or not, the guy would feel more special than his counterparts for having a non-asian wife, that said he may even be less likely to cheat on you than they.

I think I answered the second question pretty clearly. The IMAGE of a foreign woman, especially a Western woman, probably does not jibe with the IMAGE of a "trophy wife" in Japan (if that even exists).

In other words, I doubt a Japanese man would choose a Western woman as a trophy wife, if that is what he was looking for.

And since you are talking about 18-28, the point is probably moot. They are way too young to be thinking about women in that way.

Why would an Asian man feel more special for having a non-Asian wife.

Whether he feels special about it himself is up for debate - there is special treatment given to a man who has a foreign wife. Just like there is special treatment for women with foreign husbands.

Kind of like if a someone has a husband or wife who is/was a model or who is extremely attractive. The relationship may have absolutely nothing to do with that, but when other people (same gender friends in particular) hear about it - there is going to be a difference in the way they treat that person... and a different peer reaction if the friend cheats on their spouse.

In your second question you said, "Would an African American woman fit the description?" In your answer, you generalized it to ALL WESTERN women. Forgive me, but not all Western women are African American women. So you didn't answer your own question. But really, it doesn't matter.

I think Nyororin has a good point. Even in America, interracial couples are looked at differently, even admired in some cases. Also, I love RealJames's post. I'm not sure if I am total housewife material but, with my profession, I'd be more of a housewife in what ever country I'd lived in.

As for my age group, I have two friends who are getting married and they are in their mid 20s so that's not true. Besides, I don't think I said I want to move there and get married the next day.... I was merely asking about the possibility of it because I am going to be moving there for a long time (possibly for good but I'm not sure yet). But please give me some credit, I do believe in dating for a few years first. haha. :)

That sums up what I was thinking.

I'll add that I'm speaking from observation on this. Men or women with a foreign spouse feel, act and are treated differently, in a special way.

Not saying it's good, but it's true. =/

Unless they don`t - in which case you wouldn`t know about it.

In my experience, the behavior / feelings of the actual individual with the foreign spouse is sort of split. But the ones who do feel special tend to be a lot more visible and vocal than those who don`t - as they think it is a big deal and behave in such a way. Those who don`t tend to be invisible unless there is a good reason for this information to be out there.

You`re seeing the ones who "feel and act" differently. The ones who don`t have no reason to advertise the fact that their spouse is foreign, so you don`t see them. In fact, they often have reason to downplay or specifically avoid divulging that information because of the treatment given to them by peers.

The peer reaction doesn`t tend to change at all no matter what the individual thinks, as it is the "normal" peer reaction.

I am talking about couples in which I know both people, though.
And about the reactions of other Japanese people who I inform about the intercultural couple.

The average Japanese person thinks "oh he's so international/cool" about someone in a relationship with a non-asian foreigner.
Regardless of what the Japanese person in the relationship might think, they undoubtedly know that they are perceived that way.

either way, my bottom line is I think a black girl coming to Japan will have no hard time getting hitched and having a life just as good as any Japanese girl could.
would you say so too?

I think in my thinking, in this question, it doesn't matter if a woman is black or white, the answer was going to be the same, so I expanded my answer instead of just making it about African-American women.

In a society that is a homogeneous as Japan, I don't know if "admiration" for this is used like it is in the US. With 99% of the population being Japanese, the expectation is that a son or daughter will marry another Japanese. This is essentially true in every other country in the world in that no parent expects their son or daughter to marry a foreigner, but Japan is also an island country of essentially one race.

Nyororin would be better at addressing this than me, as she is an non-native Japanese living with a Japanese husband and family in Japan.

My point is people in their mid-20s are not marrying "trophy wives" as I defined it above. If they are, then get out of where you are and get to Japan ASAP.

If you are there for a long period, then I am sure you will find a terrific mate if you are social and outgoing.

Not all Japanese think dating/marrying non-Japanese is "international/cool". It is a choice that can lead to lost relationships in some circles.

If you think an African-American woman will have "no problem" finding a mate in the same way a Japanese woman would in Japan, I would like a map to where you live. It sounds pretty sweet.

Like you said, not all Japanese think that way, that's for sure.
But there are enough (most, imo) who do think that way that I don't think it would be a problem, know what I mean?

The way people talk about Japanese people on these forums these days it makes me feel like I'm just really lucky with who I meet, and I'm not just looking at the superficial behaviors either, these are my friends and their friends etc.

You are in my old stomping grounds, and I spent many a day and night in Kobe, especially Sannomiya. It is one of my most favorite places in Japan.

Do most Japanese think that international marriage is acceptable ? I cannot answer that question...I will leave it to those that that are more educated.

I'm not married, just have a j-gf, but her parents said it was cool when we first started dating, which was pretty stressful lol. They aren't old fashioned though...
Her grandparents thought it was super cool she was dating a gaijin. They keep asking to have pictures taken with me so they can show them to their friends -_- that and they keep saying I'm Australian instead of Canadian -_-

I just asked my gf what she thinks most Japanese think of it, she said:
"yeah, of course, why not?"
Then I asked, "does anyone not like international marriages?", she said:
"maybe a few old people, some grandparents might not be happy about it because of communication problems splitting the family..."

Hey! Like I said, before. The times are definitely changing and the new generation doesn't think like the older generation it all.

MMM When were you in Kobe, just curious? Mie, in 2010, things seemed to be looking up a lot. I'm not saying that everyone in Japan is going to jump on the interracial band wagon. But we can't even expect that in the states. It's about the individual and there are many individuals there with very open-minded families.

The Japanese, is every nation, just can't be generalized like that.

I lived between Kobe and Osaka from 1994-1997, but I have visited just about every year since then. Kobe is a more international city than some other areas in Japan.

Why do you ask?

I apologize for the double-post and I have been thinking about this today. From what is being said here, the essentially homogeneous country of Japan is being incredibly progressive in its thinking about interracial marriage. This would be MUCH more progressive than many opinions in the multi-racial United States where feelings of not dating outside of one's race are very common. This is especially true outside of the coasts, where you see more "red states" (conservative thinking states).

The numbers of interracial marriages is on the rise in the US, but according to the last census polls (2000) only 5% of marriages in the US were between couples of different races.

From what I can find, the numbers are almost exactly the same in Japan... about 5%. And 80% of those are Japanese men marrying foreign women (mostly from other parts of Asia).

When I lived in Japan I heard about many women who were told specifically by their parents to avoid dating foreigners. I also knew some women who wouldn't dream of dating a non-Japanese. It's not because of racism, it just never came up as they didn't have interaction with non-Japanese. It would be like if aliens landed and there were human-alien relationships all of a sudden. I know that comparison sounds weird, but just as it is easy to go to places foreigners hang out, it is also just as easy to have a lifestyle where you never interact with foreigners.

RealJames, something about your gf's grandparents sits funny with me. Saying it's "cool" she is dating a foreigner and wanting to constantly take pictures with you seems like back-handed progressivism to me.

If I were dating an African-American woman and my grandparents talked about how "cool" that was and had her pose for pictures with them, I would be VERY embarrassed and uncomfortable.

I had quite a few friends when I lived in Japan, and am still friends with a handful of them. The reason we became fairly good friends is because they didn't care that I was a foreigner. They liked me for me, not for my race or country of origin.

I, as I am sure you have, met plenty of people that wanted to be friends with me for no other reason than I am American. As I weeded out the riff-raff I was dragged to plenty of bars and introduced to plenty of people I had nothing in common with and little to talk about with. I was the "trophy friend" and it was not that fun or interesting.

I think that the issue of dating a foreigner is being confused with actually marrying one.

In terms of family reaction, there is a huge difference. Most people will react with interest, fascination, approval, or even admiration when it comes to having a dating relationship with a foreigner. Move on to talk of marriage and the tables turn VERY quickly.

When my husband and I were dating - there was never a single negative word from anyone. (The closest was a friend of his from high school who said something along the lines of "Why would a foreigner choose HIM?!?" but that certainly wasn`t negative in my direction...)
When we told everyone our intent to marry - only one friend stuck to supporting us. The others quickly shifted to "It will never last." "Are you sure she isn`t just using you?" "Dating is fine and all, but marriage is for life! Do some more thinking!" etc etc. (Guess which friend we still are in touch with these days :D ) We didn`t experience any family negativity, but they also weren`t jumping around because dating a foreigner was "cool". His mother got me alone in the car and asked me if I truly loved her son, and that was the end of it.

I think that you might be surprised to see the difference in reactions for "dating" and "planning to marry".

hmm cool topic,
i dont know alot about what japanese men think about western women in general but all i can say is i have seen some african american and east asian relationships (my friend was actually with an african american man for quite some time) and they had a baby together so it does happen
and btw interacial couples have the hottest kids! (i can vouch for that since every single guy ive pretty much ever like has been mixed race)

Yeah her grandparents are incredibly racist, it's a twisted way to approve of me, but it does show the changing times, that her grandparents friends would think highly of her family for having an international relationship in it.

I have also heard of foreigners being invited to weddings where they were so out of place just so there was an international presence there, to glorify the ordeal.

And yes I have met loads of people that have wanted to be friends simple because I'm white, to be seen in public with me, because I can speak English, because I have blue eyes, because I can get them girls, etc etc, it sucks finding out who your true friends are when it comes down to it. But, I do think this is a representation of how Japan is embracing internationalism, wanting to have a friend because he's a foreigner, as opposed to shunning him, that's a symbol in itself, isn't it?

I think you're right, possibly because of communication problems splitting the family. I don't think the motives for it are based in racism, just practicality... don't you think so?


you're SO right!!! my god mix raced chicks are soooo hot!! (*googles mixed race chicks*)

YIKES! I am glad I dug deeper. Does her grandparents racism sound like progress to you?

You have met loads of people who are interested in you because of your race and the color of your eyes. Tell me, when were white people shunned in Japan after the Meiji Restoration? Again, does this sound like progress to you?

hmm, racism generally comes with a notion of negative prejudice...
Japan is racist in a different way, positive prejudice, in my opinion...

I guess I'd rather be falsely admired than thought of as a lesser being, is what I was getting at.

excluding ww2, I'm not sure that there was any point where Japanese people hated or shunned white people.

I think my point at first was that an international/intercultural relationship would do just fine here, in fact it might do better, perhaps due to this.

I guess a black woman coming to Japan might have difficulty finding a man who likes her instead of liking her skin or what she represents in the country. Tough one to test.

I think personality can help in many situations, even racial ones. However, racial undertones tend to interweave into a person's personality when they grow up. So it will depend a bit on your upbringing and the upbringing of the Japanese folks you happen to interact with.


Leastway's that's my thought on the subject.

I agree, and I'd add that these days more and more Japanese people are brought up to be accepting and interested in international topics/people.

Even reverse racism, aka positive discrimination, is, in the end, a negative. Examples of this are that Asians excel at math, or that black people are good at sports. Well, what if you are Asian and are not good at math, or you are black and aren't good at sports. Now you are not meeting an expectation that was placed on you simply because of your race.

You know as well as I do that a relationship based on a racial presumption is doomed to failure. That's why I no longer talk to any of those "friends" back in Japan. It wasn't about me, the person, but me the white American, and not only was the relationship shallow, I was also easily replaceable.

This is true, we are in complete agreement. :)

As far as an intercultural relationship is concerned though, those people who approve or disapprove of it don't need to do so for the right reasons.
What I mean is that if a black woman marries a japanese guy and all his family and friends are cool with it, the reasons are not such a big deal, so long as the marriage isn't under strain or pressure from those who can affect it.
If, on the other hand, it were negative discrimination, it would be a huge issue.
See where I'm headed with that?

In my experience, Japanese people view African Americans as they do other Americans. (They don't really know enough about them, other than the BS that's on T.V., Movies, and Music, to make a judgment call on who or what a black person can offer.) When I went to Japan 2009-2010, I went with three other white Americans. The Japanese never called me Black, they called me American. They didn't assume I came from Africa because I was black, they didn't treat me any differently than they treated the white Americans I came with.

Thinking more and more about this... I don't think that there was a time in history when the Japanese had a problem with Africans or African Americans specifically. The problems in that regard started in the Western world and I believe that some people still try to push the beliefs that they grew up with or where exposed to on the Japanese and their way of thinking as if they, too, think like the western world. Like RealJames was talking about his gf's grandparents. They aren't racist because he is white, they are racist because he is foreign. If it were someone like my brother, a black man, they would be the same way, not because he's black but because he's foreign.

I think that it would be just as tough for a white woman, with blue eyes and blonde hair, to find a man that loves her for her and not her eyes or skin don't you think, RealJames? I know full well that a black woman would definitely stand out in Japan, but a white women would too in a place of mostly Asians.

MMM, I asked you when you lived in Japan because it's very easy to judge the reactions of a society based off of the time period you experienced..... It was quite some time ago that you experience day to day life in Japan and times have definitely changed since you lived there.

There were A LOT of people that wanted to take my picture or touch my hair (I have dreads) or even touch my boobs!!!!! (Japanese girls.... I guess to make sure they were real haha) But I never thought that they were my friends just because I was foreign. They didn't do that with my black friends from Kenya or France. I really believe it was my personally, my interests, my willingness to be outgoing (even when my Japanese wasn't good yet) that won them over.

Nyororin makes a VALID point. Dating is TOTALLY different than marriage. That's went you put up or shut up, to put it bluntly. I have no doubt about being able to date a Japanese guy because it is just dating and if I'm there long enough, it'll happen at some point. But when all cards are laid out on the table and all bets are off, it is the marriage that matters. (To me at least)

Please keep the comments coming. :vsign: