I'm Dating a Japanese Guy shirt

[Nyororin]

I totally do not get the level of defense being put up for this shirt, posted likely by it`s maker to get more hits and sales. (Joined just to post the link to this shirt? Looks like spam to me, really...)

It is in poor taste. Somehow because the subject of the stereotyping and poor taste is Asian/Japanese it is excusable. I have no doubt a lot of people would take offense to a shirt with the same level of stereotyping and poor taste if it were another race. Try making a shirt saying anyone black eats fried chicken and watermelon at every meal, and that they can`t say "ask" correctly "to save his life" - see how many people think it`s all just humor.
But Japanese are free game apparently...

I am married to a Japanese man, and I seriously would never even touch such a shirt let alone buy and wear it.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

It is good to see you want to bring a discussion from another thread here from the get-go.

Excuse me?

Originally Posted by MMM

But I have already answered the question you are asking.

So would your Japanese wife appreciate you wearing a shirt making fun of her accent and mistakes in English?

Sure making fun with the right friends or one's spouse can be done.

"I think I'll stetch my leg".
"don't you think you want to stretch them both?"

It is wrong in our book to not correct each other, else how would we learn.
A little humor in between doesn't hurt.
However I wouldn't advice this approach to a stranger or student by direct correction at the time of fault. Having it posted on a T-shirt is a different thing.

Again like the "I'm with Stupid" T-shirt. Just bad taste.

Originally Posted by MMM

I have asked this question in three ways now on this thread, but no one wants to answer it.

English speakers that speak Japanese do not make fun of Japanese speakers of English. Why? Because they know how hard the other language is.

It is people that don't speak a word of Japanese that find humor in making fun of native Japanese speakers' accents. The stereotypes promoted on this shirt are based on ignorance, not education.

This is true but friends or the spouse does; more so with an accent, but still in the end its only out wanting the other to improve. We usually get a laugh out of it.

No, I think the T-shirt DID get the sterotype correct. The "The" and "L and R" issues are real problems that most Japanese have to overcome with English.

I see where you are coming from though on this point, as one without knowledge of the Japanese language may think they are just stupid leaving "the" out, problem with plurals, "L and R". But for anyone to think this is from stupidity or ignorance show that persons ignorance. By putting some thought into it, one can conclude it stems from a difference between the languages though.

Originally Posted by MMM

So turnabout is fair play? They are racist against us, so we have a right to be racist against them? That seems like a good strategy to eliminate racism.

Seriously ... you are taking this to the extreme. There isn't any racism here.

Originally Posted by MMM

Wow. I have to say it again?

No.

Calling it "innate" is.
Crap. I have to explain it again. It says Japanese are too stupid to understand "the" but are "innately" calculators.

You don't see the problem with that?

Innate or not, again in one part they are saying they are sterotypically smart and the other sterotypically dumb. If the innate part is true, then that makes the rest of the world innately stupid towards math.

I assume "innately calculators" means born well at math; which anyone knows no one race is born well at anything. This can go back to physical traits of the race where black races were once thought to be better at particular sports. So if anyone states that anyone is born with calculus in their genes it is obvious that they are the one that are ignorant.

Again you are reading way too much into it. Its an exaggaration. Its like saying "born to swim" "born to run" "born to ride".

Originally Posted by MMM

Oh, now I am the a-hole for stereotyping?

At least you admit stereotyping Americans on that point.
No you are not and a-hole, but just pointing out you were sterotyping while demonizing the shirt for the samething.

Originally Posted by MMM

engrish.com and those type of websites are one thing, but to whitewash a race, a country, a continent... is something different. Engrish.com (etc.) gives specific examples of English mistakes found in Asia. That is a little different than saying a Japanese person could not pronounce "parallel" "to save his life".
So how would you feel to see someone wearing a t-shirt pointing that out specifically?
I know how I would feel. Not so great.

Engrish with the R instead of the L is the same point on the t-shirth.
Its the same thing.

Most people that would read a shirt like that not knowing the Japanese language differences wouldn't get the joke, the one that would understand the joke would probably laugh because it happens often. Most Japanese I know would too. Most people I know laugh about the hurdles and silliness of things they can't do. The ones that don't feel so great will most likely continue to practice to correct their issue.

Its a different thing if the shirt was talking directly to someone with this problem and was laughing at them for it, but it isnt; because its just a shirt. Even if one would laugh at them for it, it just shows the one laughing in a lower light.

Originally Posted by MMM

If it is racist, then it is hurtful. That is a matter of course.

This isn't racist though. Stereotyping at worst and basically showing Japanese language difference with English.

Originally Posted by MMM

How in the world of logic can you compare Mr. Baseball, Gung-Ho, and Lost in Translation to the dehumanizing comments of a t-shirt with less than 100 words?

Really, please.

My pleasure: All three movies have the following in common: Japanese Cultural and Language Stereotypes played on the big screen in comical fashion. All three had Japanese language stereotypes all through it phonetically and grammatically with some screwed up idioms. The "the" and "r and L" "good at math" points on the shirt played to these same comical routines in these movies.

Originally Posted by MMM

We are going to play the Nazi game? Really? That's when the argument just ends.

Oh PPPPLLLEEEASESE MMM.

Originally Posted by MMM

I can't say this shirt is Nazism...so therefore it has redeemable values? No....

This shirt is racist and just not funny. I would be ashamed of anyone I knew who wore it in Japan or in the West.

It is sad that people would actually pay money to promote the outdated and misinformed stereotypes shown here in the guise of "humor".

Guess you didn't like those three movies either. Would you be surprised that all three of those movies have played in Japan with moderate success and not being banned.

The come back to anyone seriously trying to put a Japanese person with these English language problems is always "oh, so you are fluent in Japanese?" Again, no one is going to do that.... because it would make them a hypocrite or just a mean Japanese language fluent non-Japanese.

Many Japanese co-workers I know have laughed quietly at another Japanese when they have to speak English to a customer etc because they thought it was bad. Sometimes, the speaker included will laugh, and sometimes this just eggs him on to practice more; in any case he accepts his faults as we all have to. Its not that the co-worker is stupid, they just aren't as gifted as another Japanese in Language and phonetics as another. Some say Women are better at languages than men in general....
anyway my point is, most Japanese would probably chuckle or agree a bit in their head if they were to read the shirt points on "the" and "r and l"; and maybe at some others.

Why would a Japanese person care what a foriegner that doesn't truely get the attempt at humor on the shirt thinks?

Thinking of buying the coffee mug now.
Nah..

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I totally do not get the level of defense being put up for this shirt, posted likely by it`s maker to get more hits and sales. (Joined just to post the link to this shirt? Looks like spam to me, really...)

It is in poor taste. Somehow because the subject of the stereotyping and poor taste is Asian/Japanese it is excusable. I have no doubt a lot of people would take offense to a shirt with the same level of stereotyping and poor taste if it were another race. Try making a shirt saying anyone black eats fried chicken and watermelon at every meal, and that they can`t say "ask" correctly "to save his life" - see how many people think it`s all just humor.
But Japanese are free game apparently...

I am married to a Japanese man, and I seriously would never even touch such a shirt let alone buy and wear it.

True but its the first time Spam has ever ignited such a storm.

Japanese would not disagree the public must have rice as part of their diet and do try to include it with one meal a day. Thats not a sterotype, its a fact. The Black people fried chicken and watermelon is a true stereotype because it isn't a fact.

In general, many foreigners will admit they can't say foreign words "to save their life".

I agree its sterotyping. I can't agree there is racism, hatred or dehuminization in it like some have posted. Nor posting old war hate propoganda with wonderful handcrafted adlibs in comparison.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Sure making fun with the right friends or one's spouse can be done.

"Right friends" or "one's spouse" is different than advertising the same feelings on a t-shirt, isn't it?

Originally Posted by clintjm

No, I think the T-shirt DID get the sterotype correct. The "The" and "L and R" issues are real problems that most Japanese have to overcome with English.

And that is worthy of a joke on an American T-shirt?

If this shirt is meant to be an educational tool, please let me know now. I don't see it that way.

Originally Posted by clintjm

I see where you are coming from though on this point, as one without knowledge of the Japanese language may think they are just stupid leaving "the" out, problem with plurals, "L and R". But for anyone to think this is from stupidity or ignorance show that persons ignorance. By putting some thought into it, one can conclude it stems from a difference between the languages though.

"By putting some thought into it" one would see this shirt is in poor taste.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Seriously ... you are taking this to the extreme. There isn't any racism here.

The racism is clear and bold-faced. The denial of the offensiveness of it is what I would consider extreme.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Innate or not, again in one part they are saying they are sterotypically smart and the other sterotypically dumb. If the innate part is true, then that makes the rest of the world innately stupid towards math.

You have no idea how offensive it is to be told your brain is not like a human, but a computer.

Originally Posted by clintjm

I assume "innately calculators" means born well at math; which anyone knows no one race is born well at anything. This can go back to physical traits of the race where black races were once thought to be better at particular sports. So if anyone states that anyone is born with calculus in their genes it is obvious that they are the one that are ignorant.

Exactly. To say one race is "innately" made to do one thing in 2010 is going to be considered a racist statement because it is not based in fact.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Most people that would read a shirt like that not knowing the Japanese language differences wouldn't get the joke, the one that would understand the joke would probably laugh because it happens often. Most Japanese I know would too. Most people I know laugh about the hurdles and silliness of things they can't do. The ones that don't feel so great will most likely continue to practice to correct their issue.

Its a different thing if the shirt was talking directly to someone with this problem and was laughing at them for it, but it isnt; because its just a shirt. Even if one would laugh at them for it, it just shows the one laughing in a lower light.

If they don't "get the joke" then that kind of shirt only promotes the stereotypes you are defending.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Guess you didn't like those three movies either. Would you be surprised that all three of those movies have played in Japan with moderate success and not being banned.

Really?

I have seen Mr. Baseball, Gung-ho, and Lost in Translation multiple times, and each of these movies DEALS WITH stereotypes in their own ways.

This shirt does not DEAL WITH stereotypes...it just propagates them. It promotes them. That is the difference between a movie and a t-shirt.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

True but its the first time Spam has ever ignited such a storm.

Japanese would not disagree the public must have rice as part of their diet and do try to include it with one meal a day. Thats not a sterotype, its a fact. The Black people fried chicken and watermelon is a true stereotype because it isn't a fact.

In general, many foreigners will admit they can't say foreign words "to save their life".

I agree its sterotyping. I can't agree there is racism, hatred or dehuminization in it like some have posted. Nor posting old war hate propoganda with wonderful handcrafted adlibs in comparison.

Clint, wow.

Yes, Many Japanese eat rice two or three times a day...no one talked about that one as a stereotype.

I don't admit to not being able to say "foreign words" in Japan...because I can.

Please, don't make me the bad guy for posting an example of post-war racism. The fact that this crap is accepted is the problem.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Japanese would not disagree the public must have rice as part of their diet and do try to include it with one meal a day. Thats not a sterotype, its a fact. The Black people fried chicken and watermelon is a true stereotype because it isn't a fact.

Pretty much all stereotypes are founded in some way in reality. I don`t think this makes them okay to propagate.

In general, many foreigners will admit they can't say foreign words "to save their life".

Yes, but there isn`t a well known stereotype attached to that. I highly highly doubt that anyone is going to think "Harhar, that`s funny because I can`t say foreign words well either!" It`s most definitely just going to go into the "l and r mix up is so hilarious!" bin.

I agree its sterotyping. I can't agree there is racism, hatred or dehuminization in it like some have posted. Nor posting old war hate propoganda with wonderful handcrafted adlibs in comparison.

You have said that if someone thinks about these things for a moment they would get them as stereotypes and humor... The thing is, people don`t think about them... And even if they did, I believe you`re giving the average Joe too much credit. Maybe you live in a very international community - a lot of people do not. I know that I have had MANY a "joke" made to me at the expense of my husband, almost all based in stereotypes and ignorance... And these people were definitely not going to "think about it" and make a connection to the reality and reason behind some of these stereotypes.

It doesn`t feel very funny when people laugh and ask you if your kid is going to be a "normal person" or grow up like "one of those Japanese drones". It doesn`t feel very funny when people make jokes about your husband with L and R interchanges.
Stereotypes add up, and I have been told that my son has medical problems because his father was a "monkey"... I have also been asked if he makes me say "I ruv you rong time" before having sex or makes me wear a school girl uniform. It`s all stereotyping, and it`s not very funny when you`re on the receiving end of the "joke".

There may be a place where you can laugh about this shirt - maybe in family, or with the right friends, etc... Things are different between friends. But I am willing to guess that 99% of the time, it isn`t appropriate. That is what I take issue with. 99% of the time, it`s going to be people on the "outside" laughing at the expense of those on the "inside".

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Clint, wow.

Yes, Many Japanese eat rice two or three times a day...no one talked about that one as a stereotype.

I don't admit to not being able to say "foreign words" in Japan...because I can.

Please, don't make me the bad guy for posting an example of post-war racism. The fact that this crap is accepted is the problem.

I'm going to buy it just to be the first.

What % of cotton I wonder.

10. Eats rice with every meal.
Can be considered sterotyping. Every meal is EVERY meal. Japanese do not eat rice with every meal all the time. No human does that. You are not offended but maybe somebody will be. You pick and chose apparently.

I'm not sure if you comment came out wrong or what, but I'm glad you don't have any of those tounge twister words or names. I come across them now and mispronounce.

Your war poster posting was is seriously way out of context. This shirt was nothing of even close your war posting. Look like during the war actually: War Savings. In any war Racist hatred is not on the same level or close to this shirt. It is nothing in comparison to what you posted with the war stamp poster thing with colorful handcrafted adlibs.

This is now a project for me. I'm going to get some opinions from Japanese and English (both familiar with Japanese language/culture and not). See what they think and feel.

[Tsuwabuki]

Okay, setting aside the war propaganda, let's instead consider one of my favorite films, that still was deeply offensive in the way it treats asians:

Sixteen Candles' portrayal of a Chinese foreign exchange student (as portrayed by a Japanese-American actor) is pretty bad. In retrospect, it could not be done today. It is on the same level, in my opinion, as this shirt.

Of course, then again, John Hughes movies are very over the top when it comes to all social groups: one of the reasons they're awesome.

[jbradfor]

Not only is this shirt offensive, it's pretty stupid as well. Two thumbs down in my book. Offensive and funny is one thing, offensive and stupid is just pointless.

The fact that they have it on a MATERNITY shirt, now that's funny. Can you imagine walking around Japan, with an offensive shirt, nine months pregnant, saying you're not even married!

[PockyMePink]

Originally Posted by MMM

It sounds a lot like "bad English" and apparently it is incomprehensible to Japanese.

Are you going to force me to explain myself again?

You never really explained yourself the first time.
Though since you're not putting up an argument here, I'll let it slide.

Yes, the shirt removed their humanity with the word "innate". If it had said "Thanks to my boyfriend's education, he is like a human calculator"...which is more accurate (maybe...certainly simply being Asian does not make a person smart or like a calculator) but is less "funny" (in disparaging Asians way).

I am sorry you think it is funny to compare Asians to computers. I know many Asians that are offended by this comparison...(especially as children living in the US).

Innate ability =/= Inhuman
Mixing these two is entierly your opinion, and it seperates why you find it offensive and I don't.

I'm not sorry that I find it funny. Humor is humor, and just because you find it offensive doesn't mean I'm going to feel bad for laughing at it. I know many Asians that would buy this shirt on the spot if they saw it.

It is stupid, as I said, but put yourself in the shoes of a Japanese who has been asked how many samurai swords he owns.

Sometimes the person saying it makes a difference.

Yes, it is not a racist call to arms, but it is based on nothing but ignorant stereotypes.

*puts self in Japanese person's shoes*
I could kill you with my katana.
*steps out of Japanese person's shoes*

The Asians I know would probably laugh along with me at that. Say whatever you want, but it's neither racist nor offensive.

We can work to support stereotypes or work to try and eliminate them. I feel comfortable working to eliminate them. I hope you are comfortable doing what you are doing.

What I am doing? Defending comedy? Sorry, but this shirt is as harmless as it gets imo. I can't argue against something I don't find offensive.

You can't eliminate stereotypes. It's impossible. When someone says "dirt" and you think of the color brown, it's a stereotype of dirt. The human mind works off of stereotypes. If you're truely working to eliminate stereotypes, then you're wasting your energy. Do something more progressive, like educating people on other cultures.