Explain べらんめえ Please

[KyleGoetz]

I've recently come across the term べらんめえ. I understand it's the style of speech that makes ひ into し and あい and いい into ええ. For example, 人は汚い might be pronounced しとがきたねえ. I've know about this speech style for a long time (actually probably for 10 or more years!), but I never had a name for it.

1. Where does the term べらんめえ come from?
2. Are there good resources to read up on it?
3. Are there more "rules" than what I mentioned above?
4. I saw someone refer to 東北 when discussing it; is it related to the dialect there originally? I would have guessed it's an 江戸 thing.

I know young people talk sort of like this sometimes to be "cool," and I kept wondering about the pronunciation of ひ for a couple years because I think one of my professors may have switched into べらんめえ when speaking quickly, thus leaving me confused for a long time (kind of like whether I should pronounce the す at the end of polite forms like です and します...this was another problem for me in college because two of my TAs spoke this way and two did not).

Thanks!

[andylaurel]

Rikaichan browser dictionary has it as...
べらんめえ
(exp) bloody fool!

I've not heard of the ひ into し before.

I know lots of words are changed by men of all ages for example;
暑い - あっちいな
さむい - さみーな
高い - たけぇー！
わからない - わかんねぇぇ
なんとかじゃない　- なんとかじゃねぇし
I could go on for pages but in short, I asked my girl friend about べらんめえ and she went of about the Edo period and how it's not called that.

Interesting topic though.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by andylaurel

Rikaichan browser dictionary has it as...
べらんめえ
(exp) bloody fool!

I've not heard of the ひ into し before.

I know lots of words are changed by men of all ages for example;
暑い - あっちいな
さむい - さみーな
高い - たけぇー！
わからない - わかんねぇぇ
なんとかじゃない　- なんとかじゃねぇし
I could go on for pages but in short, I asked my girl friend about べらんめえ and she went of about the Edo period and how it's not called that.

Interesting topic though.

It's called べらんめえ口調 for sure. I'm going to guess we're talking about something else. べらんめえくちょう【べらんめえ口調】の意味 国語辞典 - goo辞書

[Nagoyankee]

Originally Posted by andylaurel

I've not heard of the ひ into し before.

Come to Tokyo and chat with older folk...

コーシー
しと（人）
しっこし（引っ越し）
しがし（東）
シットラー（ ）

[andylaurel]

Oh wow.
That's interesting.
My girlfriend is prone to going off on tangents from time to time.
She is also prone to not knowing much about anything.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by andylaurel

Oh wow.
That's interesting.
My girlfriend is prone to going off on tangents from time to time.
She is also prone to not knowing much about anything.

Is your girlfriend Japanese? Because it's hard to imagine a Japanese in Gunma-ken, so close to Tokyo, not knowing about it, esp. the ひ->し thing.

[komitsuki]

Originally Posted by Nagoyankee

Come to Tokyo and chat with older folk...

コーシー
しと（人）
しっこし（引っ越し）
しがし（東）
シットラー（ ）

hi and shi syllables are quite proximate to each other that sometimes both of them sound the same for some people, especially with hearing problems.

[andylaurel]

I didn't specify the ひ　to し　but when I mentioned べらんめえ she carried on about how no-one has said that since the Edo period.

I'd hope she'd know about the ひ　to　し　because she's very Japanese.

She's a natto eating, karaoke singing, onsen visiting, old fashioned Gunma girl.

Without her, I'd be stuck battling with 4級 Japanese!

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by komitsuki

hi and shi syllables are quite proximate to each other that sometimes both of them sound the same for some people, especially with hearing problems.

Yeah, but in this case, it seems to be a dialect-esque speech style, not a speech impediment.