What's the difference between...

[MonkeYMaideN]

Hello everyone, I’ve been studying my kanji and came across something that’s been bugging me…

On the website I use to study my kanji, it lists:

森 as “forest”
林 as “woods” or “forest”

AND

晩 as “evening”
夕 as “evening”

Is it the usage when writing a sentence or speaking to someone that makes them different? Based on the vocabulary words provided on the website, I assumed 森 was an actual forest while 林was some kind of adjective describing something with forestry.

I can understand the difference between 晩 or 夕 when compared to 夜 and 午, but I don’t get why they both have the same definition (evening).

Are there more kanji with similar definitions like these, and if so how do I differentiate between the two? I thought it’d be best to ask people experienced with the language rather than rely on Google. I couldn't find a thread asking a similar question, but if there is one please link me to it.

I can list the kanji/kana readings for some of the vocabulary words if you want me to.

Thanks in Advance!

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by MonkeYMaideN

Hello everyone, I’ve been studying my kanji and came across something that’s been bugging me…

On the website I use to study my kanji, it lists:

森 as “forest”
林 as “woods” or “forest”

AND

晩 as “evening”
夕 as “evening”

Is it the usage when writing a sentence or speaking to someone that makes them different? Based on the vocabulary words provided on the website, I assumed 森 was an actual forest while 林was some kind of adjective describing something with forestry.

I can understand the difference between 晩 or 夕 when compared to 夜 and 午, but I don’t get why they both have the same definition (evening).

Are there more kanji with similar definitions like these, and if so how do I differentiate between the two? I thought it’d be best to ask people experienced with the language rather than rely on Google. I couldn't find a thread asking a similar question, but if there is one please link me to it.

I can list the kanji/kana readings for some of the vocabulary words if you want me to.

Thanks in Advance!

There are subtle differences, just like the difference between "night" and "evening" and "dusk" and "dark thirty" and "bedtime" and "midnight" and "the dark."

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by MonkeYMaideN

Hello everyone, I’ve been studying my kanji and came across something that’s been bugging me…

On the website I use to study my kanji, it lists:

森 as “forest”
林 as “woods” or “forest”

AND

晩 as “evening”
夕 as “evening”

Is it the usage when writing a sentence or speaking to someone that makes them different? Based on the vocabulary words provided on the website, I assumed 森 was an actual forest while 林was some kind of adjective describing something with forestry.

I can understand the difference between 晩 or 夕 when compared to 夜 and 午, but I don’t get why they both have the same definition (evening).

Are there more kanji with similar definitions like these, and if so how do I differentiate between the two? I thought it’d be best to ask people experienced with the language rather than rely on Google. I couldn't find a thread asking a similar question, but if there is one please link me to it.

I can list the kanji/kana readings for some of the vocabulary words if you want me to.

Thanks in Advance!

My impression has always been that 森 (forest) is bigger than 林 (woods).

As far as the words for evening goes, well why can't there be more than one word with the same meaning? English has a plethora of synonyms.

[MonkeYMaideN]

Okay, that's a relief.
So, if I were to use either of the two in a sentence I wrote or while speaking, anyone who also understood Japanese would get what I was saying?

Originally Posted by RickOShay

My impression has always been that 森 (forest) is bigger than 林 (woods).

As far as the words for evening goes, well why can't there be more than one word with the same meaning? English has a plethora of synonyms.

I didn't know whether or not that was allowed in Japanese though. I thought that if I used one instead of the other in the wrong context, it'd be awkward while communicating with someone.


But in the end, you're both basically saying that it doesn't matter which one I use right? Unless I was corrected my a native speaker or something like that.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by MonkeYMaideN

Okay, that's a relief.
So, if I were to use either of the two in a sentence I wrote or while speaking, anyone who also understood Japanese would get what I was saying?




I didn't know whether or not that was allowed in Japanese though. I thought that if I used one instead of the other in the wrong context, it'd be awkward while communicating with someone.


But in the end, you're both basically saying that it doesn't matter which one I use right? Unless I was corrected my a native speaker or something like that.

Well, words are not always interchangeable in all situations, despite having the same meaning you know. You will learn in time what works best for what situation.. for me.. I tend to use 夜 the most when talking about evening/night, with 夕方 coming up in second place I suppose. honestly.. the only time 晩 comes out of my mouth is when I occasionally say 晩ご飯。 or こんばんは　(今晩は）。 But that could be just me.. if you really want the nuances and stuff broken down you will have to get the opinion of a native.

[Sashimister]

RickOShay is correct on 森 and 林.

Your second question is somewhat tricky. This is a kanji question, not a word one. Yet you make it sound like a word question and people tried to answer as such. The word "synonym" is NOT used when comparing kanji. It's reserved for words.

We use 晩 as a word, but seldom use 夕 as such. The latter is almost always used in compounds such as 夕方 and 夕食.

Even as kanji, there is a difference in the meaning between 晩 and 夕. 夕 is the early evening and 晩 is mid and late evening.

[Nyororin]

I think a better translation of the difference between 森 and 林 would be that 森 is forest while 林 is a grove.
There is a distinct difference in size. A clump of trees is a 林 while a real forest is a 森.

It`s really best to look at the kanji actually being used than alone. Some are only used in a certain compounds, some hardly ever, etc. If you just look at them alone and try to remember them... Well, you`re setting yourself up for a lot of stress and confusion. Kanji are something that are good to learn after you actually know the words that they represent.

[MonkeYMaideN]

Okay, I think I understand the difference now.
I just noticed that on the website they only give you an ON reading for 晩, which is primarily used for kanji that stand alone (no compounds), so your explanation makes perfect sense.

And I’ll remember not to refer to kanji as “words” while studying them, because that's mostly why I confused the meanings.

Thanks for clearing that up for me!


EDIT:

And also thanks for telling me the difference between 森 and 林.

Nyororin, are you suggesting that I go ahead and use the "Japanese Demystified" book while studying my kanji to get a good grasp of the kanji usage, instead of learning the kanji by themselves? (I was planning on going up to 500 before I actually studied grammar/vocab, and I know about 100 or so now)

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by MonkeYMaideN

Nyororin, are you suggesting that I go ahead and use the "Japanese Demystified" book while studying my kanji to get a good grasp of the kanji usage, instead of learning the kanji by themselves? (I was planning on going up to 500 before I actually studied grammar/vocab, and I know about 100 or so now)

I cannot recommend any books, I am not familiar enough with any to give advice on them.
I would say that you should learn grammar and vocab before even starting kanji. Kanji isn`t necessary to start learning Japanese. Just as learning to spell a bunch of random words is no way to build a good foundation for learning English, memorizing a bunch of kanji isn`t a good foundation for learning Japanese... And can actually hinder progress by teaching bad habits when it comes to meaning.
Learners who study individual kanji first seem have a lot more trouble later with multiple meanings for different kanji when they are used in compounds. If you know the word first, then learn how to write it... it tends to stick around a lot longer in your mind and eliminates a lot of space for mistakes. Especially with the "kanji has an English meaning!" study method out there. Instead of being able to read a fluent sentence, you risk needing to think back to English for the meanings. Translating in your head is one of the worst bad habits in learning a language.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by MonkeYMaideN

I was planning on going up to 500 before I actually studied grammar/vocab

DO NOT DO THAT. You should not be learning 500 kanji before learning any vocabulary! That's like learning prefixes like pseudo and quasi and such before learning English!