Prized Japanese social values that withstand 'Westernization'

[MMM]

Prized Japanese social values that withstand 'Westernization' | The Japan Times Online

Prized Japanese social values that withstand 'Westernization'

By EDWARD HOFFMAN
Special to The Japan Times

NEW YORK — Japan is a fascinating and beautiful country, but its culture can be baffling to Westerners. This seems especially true for Americans, with our long history of geographic and cultural isolation from Europe and Asia.

In their quick visits to Kyoto's majestic Buddhist temples and Tokyo's ultramodern glitz, our tourists catch a glimpse of the old versus the new. But they get almost no real contact with Japanese people. As for those motivated by commerce, most Americans realize soon enough that guidebooks on "how to do business with the Japanese" are cliched, oversimplified and even misleading.

As a New York-based psychologist specializing in personality study, I've been lecturing frequently and collaborating in Japan for the past decade. As a result, seven of my books have now been translated into Japanese. Last fall I served as a visiting professor at the University of Tokyo, where my wife (a third-generation Brazilian Japanese) and our two tots were comfortably housed on campus, a brisk walk from historic Ueno Park.

As time passed, I saw more clearly than ever how Japanese social etiquette and values differ from those of Westerners. I also found time to conduct a research study with over 150 Tokyo college students planning teaching or child psychology careers.

My goal? To determine the social skills they valued most in training schoolchildren: a growing international field that educators today often call "character education." As incidents of student bullying, violence and classroom disruption have reached unprecedented levels in contemporary Japan, politicians and professionals alike are trying to reverse this alarming trend.

My survey presented 18 different social skills or "competencies," and asked participants anonymously to identify the seven most important for schoolchildren to acquire in order of ranking from No. 1 to No. 7. I expected that Japanese education majors would answer more or less like their American counterparts, who, for over 25 years, have been taught that empathy and attentiveness to others are the most vital traits for social success starting in childhood. Because Japanese society is regarded by foreign researchers as highly collectivist, I also expected that teamwork would be a paramount social value among my Tokyo participants.

Both expectations proved completely wrong. In fact, findings surprised even my Japanese host colleagues. Why? Because they had accepted their country's popular view that its youth have become "Westernized" or "Americanized" due to Hollywood movies, pop music and the Internet. Yet, it's now clear that such global forces, whatever their impact, haven't really altered basic — and long-standing — Japanese social values.

How so? In essence, here are my findings, which definitely have international relevance beyond the fields of teacher-training and character education:

(1) In Japan, the value of politeness and social manners is paramount. This is no cliche, for the trait was rated among the top seven by 82 percent of participants — surpassing even that of honesty- trustworthiness. Americans would be wise to hone their etiquette skills if planning business or other relations with Japanese. "Please," "may I," "excuse me," "sorry to bother you" and "thank you" go a long way.

(2) Gratitude is another highly prized Japanese trait. Over 80 percent of my participants rated it among the top seven — and almost amazingly for Westerners — just behind politeness and trustworthiness in importance.

Among Americans generally, expressing or even feeling thankfulness is inconsequential. But not so in Japan, where its absence is a serious marker of rudeness. You'll win few friends or business clients by failing to verbalize gratitude freely and often.

(3) The ability to apologize is a cherished Japanese social trait, rated among the top seven by 58 percent of participants, slightly behind kindness. The extent to which apologies are central to Japanese society — even embedded in its judicial system — is almost incomprehensible to most Americans.

In our culture, to apologize is typically regarded as a sign of personal weakness, whether in business or family matters. So even when we Americans know we're in the wrong, we rarely make either public or private apologies. Carry this attitude into relations with the Japanese, and you're doomed to failure.

(4) Friendliness was a social trait rated relatively high, among the top seven by 51 percent of participants — and ranked far above patience, fairness and empathy.

Certainly, this finding contradicts the popular Western stereotype of Japanese people as being aloof and disengaged. From my psychological perch, their reluctance to engage in quick soul-baring or intense emotionality is often misinterpreted by Americans as unfriendliness or coldness. The result? Resentment and then withdrawal.

Bear in mind that recent psychological studies show that calmness rather than excitement is associated with personal well-being among the Japanese. In their eyes, a smooth, orderly social interaction has the best seeds for growth, not one marked by exuberance, giddiness or glad-handing.

I can't claim that my study of social traits esteemed by Tokyo's budding teachers and psychologists ends the debate about cultural change in this complex, beautiful country. But to paraphrase Mark Twain, a great American writer with a sharp eye for human personality, rumors about the demise of Japan's traditional values appear to be very much exaggerated.

Edward Hoffman, Ph.D., is an adjunct psychology professor at Yeshiva University and author of "Psychological Testing at Work" and other books (elhoffma@yu.edu).

[steven]

I appreciate things like this very much and I think this research has some good value, but there were a few things that struck me about it.

First of all, it was kinda funny how the author talks about "westernized" trends permiating Japanese life, especially in the younger generation, then goes on to say that it would be good if we as Americans make sure we are sensative to their "Japanese" culture.

I think that the sample size could be bigger or even more varied for that matter. Most Japanese people have gone through the school system so they should all be aware (even if subconsciously) of what was presented as most important to them socially speaking. I think that college students are of that so called "Westernized-generation" which makes this all a little confusing to me as the results seem to be presented as useful in business situations (which would be conducted with people I'd assume to be older than the age group sampled). Why not just conduct the survey on business students, as they will be future businesspeople, instead?

I think it's an interesting survey and the use of the results in a business situation seems like a good application for something of this nature. However, I saw a lot of these problems having to do with language. I know that culture plays a huge roll in language, but something doesn't settle right here. For example, the report says soemthing along the lines that Japanese people are very apologetic therefore Americans should sympathize with this by making sure they apologize. Then it goes on to say what I took as a bit of a slight towards Americans: we're not very aplogetic and it's a sign of weakness eevn if we did. I think this obviously varies from person to person, but I think you'd be discounting the American character by saying a statement like that. I'm not a Japan hater by any means, but I think there are many things in the past that Japan's government has refused to apologize about as well. With that being said, this reminds me of the cover of a book that I own, which I actually like. It's a book called "Communicative Styles of Japanese and Americans" by Barnlund. I never really payed attention to it until one of my classmates in college pointed it out to me, but there is an image of a swan and an eagle on the cover, with the tough looking eagle obviously representing America and the graceful looking swan representing Japan. Could Japan be so represented, say, 60 years ago?

Again, looking at this from my point of view, which I think would be a bit of a linguistic one, why do Americans have to change their speaking habits for Japanese? This is the same thing that ruins the English education in Japan. Why can't they adapt to American English when they speak to us? That being said, I think it's just as important for Americans to learn Japanese customs when speaking Japanese. I know this gets more complicated when dealing with the big boss of a company and the like and that may be where this kind of information would most come in handy.

I think saying things that equate to the idea that Americans are thankless is a bit of an offense, though. "Among Americans generally, expressing or even feeling thankfulness is inconsequential." The wording on that just seems a bit off. In regards to Japanese people, the aurthor stated, "...From my psychological perch, their reluctance to engage in quick soul-baring or intense emotionality is often misinterpreted by Americans as unfriendliness or coldness." Why is it that Japanese are misinterpreted as such, but Americans are generally such? What about the Japanese idea of "あわせる"? Which is to match things in a sense, as to not embarass one of the parties involved in a gathering or meeting. Looking at two equal people and calling one "~san" while calling the next simply by his name would be breaking this rule. That's kind of like the feeling on got when comparing those two previous sentences.

Finally, a small story-- I hear a lot of Japanese people talking about Chinese people being rude. Even my girlfriend came home one day from her work (as a makeup saleswoman) and was complaining about it. I talked to her a bit and decided to figure out why she thought that. She said things like Chinese people are "thankless" and don't say "sorry" and things like that. From a brief bit of research on the internet (for what it's worth) I found out that Chinese people don't say "thank you" on purpose. The reason being that in doing so, you would create distance between you and your listener, thus sounding "cold". By not saying thank you, it's a sign of understanding that you don't expect them to have to say it back to you when that time comes. I've never heard of many Japanese people (or a single person, but I wouldn't call that conclusive) who was aware or sensative of this.

That being said, I would hope that this kind of work is not only translated into Japanese, but I would hope that there are some American samples to help Japanese people not "misinterpret" American communication. For example, maybe Americans put more emphasis on eye contact than Japanese, and maybe by not using eye contact it makes you look like an untrustworthy person (to an American). Things like that would be just as important for Japanese to know about. Then again, I think it can't be stressed enough that when speaking Japanese, Japanese communication should be utilized and when speaking American English, American communication should be utilized.

All in all, I like the idea a lot. I think the execution of it is flawed. I think a bigger sample size would be nice. I think getting rid of the arbitrary "top 7" thing might be something to think about too. The author basically said that he got his "choices" for this survey from umpteen years of observation. I think it would make things a little difficult, but it might be worthwhile to have a free answer style survey as to let the Japanese completely decide. The interpretation of the data was a little bit strange in that there seemed to be a balance issue. The comments seemed to slight Americans while being a little more friendly towards Japanese. I think to really have great data, and something really worth studying, it would be good to have both sides of the picture, especially if this is going to be translated into Japanese like some of his previous works. As of right now, reading it felt familiar to reading some kind of horoscope reading in that it had big wide generalizations. The aim of the whole thing is great, but it's a shame it couldn't have been better pulled off.

As an aside, the title says that the traits stated "withstand westernization", but I don't know how that was concluded. I think that just because these traits are being focused on in school doesn't mean that these schools are producing model students with these traits.

[Tsuwabuki]

This article is spot on.

The only cultural value mentioned above I struggle with is the apologies. In America, I not only expect someone to explain their actions, I expect them go over the process of how a mistake was made. The idea is to find the logical missteps and improve the process so that individual does not make the same mistake twice. I could absolutely care less about whether someone apologises, as an apology alone does not show understanding of why or where the person went wrong nor does it show how they will prevent the action in the future. I'd rather have the thought processes and a promise of a prevention plan than an apology.

I also, and I am sure most Americans, put great emphasis on one's willingness to defend a position they believe to be right. There comes a point where one must not let political expediency, whether it is office politics or national politics, dictate your actions and how you view your actions. If someone has a fundamentally opposed view of an action to mine, and is willing to defend it vigorously, I might ask that person to resign and find a job that better fits their views, but I will not lose respect for them. I will certainly not ask for an apology from them.

In that case, I often do find myself having to take a step back when I make a mistake. Since I believe in the golden rule, I expect that I should have the right to explain my actions, offer mitigating circumstances, work on a process for mistake prevention, and then, yes, if warranted, apologise. I also expect that I should be given respect for refusing to apologise when I believe to be unwarranted, and would rather quit as a matter of personal honor. These are far different than refusing to accept blame or personal responsibility, and should not be confused with such.

I have an awful time just saying "I'm sorry" and moving on, which is what the Japanese expect. Especially if I don't believe I am actually in the wrong. In fact I find it incredibly painful. And I am resentful at feeling like I've been blatantly disrespected and humiliated when it happens. Because I am not a cultural or moral relativist, even if I stay in Japan permanently, my attitude on this subject is not likely to change.

I think, in particular, the Japanese criminal justice system would be very hard for me to participate in, as I would expect rights that are not a part of the Japanese Constitution but that I consider inherent, regardless of if they are written down on a piece of paper or not. The right to be silent, the right not to be detained without due process, the right to have a lawyer present during questioning, and the right to a jury trial (which, despite lay judges, Japan doesn't really have). If accused of a crime, I probably would be completely unable to maintain proper Japanese courtroom decorum. I would probably be yelling my head off about the violation of my inherent civil rights. Something tells me that wouldn't sit well with a Japanese judge.

[Nyororin]

That being said, I would hope that this kind of work is not only translated into Japanese, but I would hope that there are some American samples to help Japanese people not "misinterpret" American communication. For example, maybe Americans put more emphasis on eye contact than Japanese, and maybe by not using eye contact it makes you look like an untrustworthy person (to an American). Things like that would be just as important for Japanese to know about. Then again, I think it can't be stressed enough that when speaking Japanese, Japanese communication should be utilized and when speaking American English, American communication should be utilized.

Go to any bookstore in Japan.
There are countless books about communicating in the American style - about how simply using words in English doesn`t make it natural and that there are key things that must be remembered to make up for the cultural differences, etc etc etc. Not to mention that the basics are usually covered in even the crappiest classroom English textbooks (and in most of the Japanese-English/English-Japanese dictionaries I have encountered in Japan.) The information is not only there, but coming from countless directions.
On the other hand, information going the opposite direction - ie. about Japanese styles of communication for Americans - all tend to be geared toward business and are certainly not something frequently encountered by Americans.

As an aside, the title says that the traits stated "withstand westernization", but I don't know how that was concluded. I think that just because these traits are being focused on in school doesn't mean that these schools are producing model students with these traits.

I think it is fairly clear. "American style" communication for the world market and the like is pushed pretty hard wherever you turn. As I said earlier, look in any bookstore and you will find tons. Look in any classroom and you`ll see tons.
What this article is pointing out is that values considered traditional have remained important, rather than being passed up for values considered more "western".

It isn`t that the traits are being focused on in school - in fact, I think that is a very minor point. What is being looked at isn`t what is being taught in school, really, but what those who will be teaching consider important. They are the ones being looked at. You don`t say that you find certain values important and believe they need to be emphasized in teaching if you yourself do not feel they are important. These are values, not curriculum - a teacher would be fairly free to stress the values they feel are important. What this shows is that even after years of being fed "American style communication" and the like, values that have been traditionally considered important are still considered important by young adults.

[Ronin4hire]

I dont think I agree with the authors definition of culture. To say that Japan is "withstanding Westernisation" implies that Japanese culture can be defined concretely and that culture is a static, self-contained concept that has a fundamental core.

There are two ways I define culture but in this context I think that "Japanese culture" is simply what the Japanese are doing. While there may be many ideas and influences that have been INTRODUCED from the West at some time during the last few decades and have caught on quickly, the way they function in Japanese society today has little to do with "The West".

A pedantic gripe because otherwise I have no problem with the article. Though there is nothing surprising in here, I can relate it to my experience here in Japan quite well.

I think a better title should be "Differences between Japanese culture and American culture".

[steven]

Nyororin, I think I have to disagree with you. I teach English in Japan and the textbooks I have discovered contain many examples of taking a Japanese phrase and choosing the closest thing to it that you could possibly make in English (whether it is natural or not). Teachers I've worked with also often teach very predictable Japanese-English grammar patterns.

I've been to numerous bookstores in Japan and although I don't spend my time looking at English help books too much, I have looked through them before and found a lot of the same ol'-same ol'. I am sure that the mediocre and downright terrible outnumber the books that you say are in every book store by a lot. I have not found one book that contains that you're talking about in any bookstore. Again, I don't peruse through those kinds of books on a regular basis though, and I'd like to know what it is that you're talking about so I can read them for myself. (I have heard of Dave Specter's book about waseieigo though and that seems like it could be quite useful). I have seen A TON of English dictionaries from Japan and there are still a lot of little problems within them. I'm not a huge fan of using dictionaries to begin with though as the whole idea implies a mathematical equation (this = that) when language is way more complex than that.

The information, as you say, is certainly there. The problem is, it's completely drowned out by eiken crap and other test study books, which all promote some kind of fantasy land English (that strangely complies with a lot of Japanese customs or grammar).

I do agree with you that maybe these things are too often geared for business. I said before that that is a good application for it-- and I still believe that it is, but I think a lot of people would like to know what to expect in everyday conversation. The fact of the matter is, though, that most people dealing with Japan (who are foreigners) will end up in some kind of work atmosphere (as that's how the visas tend to work) and that this information would likely come in handy for them. Doing a study like this for someone coming to Japan for a vacation might not be very practical. That's not to say there isn't any merit in it though.

"I think it is fairly clear. "American style" communication for the world market and the like is pushed pretty hard wherever you turn. As I said earlier, look in any bookstore and you will find tons. Look in any classroom and you`ll see tons. "
This is simply not true. I've been to many classrooms and I've been to many schools where they had demonstrations and it's just not like that. It's definately more American than it is Australian or South African or something like that, but the "communication style" is most certainly Japanese while the language they are teaching is like some kind of hybrid. I'm sure this kind of thing will vary from school to school, but that's the general feeling that I get at work and whenever I speak to Japanese people trying to speak English to me.

"What this article is pointing out is that values considered traditional have remained important, rather than being passed up for values considered more "western"."
The artical is saying that values considered traditional have remained important, but I think the reality is that some of these values ARE being passed up for more "westernized values" or even worse, people are becoming more and more rude (which the I felt the author seemed to define as "westernized" in a couple of instances). That is something that other teachers often talk about, and some of my students are representative of. Multi-generation houses are less prevelant, where if your mom and dad are working late, you get to come home to grandma and grandpa. Now what you see more of is mom and dad at work and the kids come home to TV and computers, which is similar to America. The education which used to usually be received from grandparents is no longer there. That, I think, is a big part in all this.

"It isn`t that the traits are being focused on in school - in fact, I think that is a very minor point. What is being looked at isn`t what is being taught in school, really, but what those who will be teaching consider important.They are the ones being looked at. You don`t say that you find certain values important and believe they need to be emphasized in teaching if you yourself do not feel they are important. These are values, not curriculum - a teacher would be fairly free to stress the values they feel are important. What this shows is that even after years of being fed "American style communication" and the like, values that have been traditionally considered important are still considered important by young adults."

I'm sorry but I'm not sure that I'm following this correctly. What I was saying is that these traits ARE being focused on in school still and that is made clear by the fact that these younger people think that's what is important. You think something is important because you've been taught it's important. The people being surveyed aren't teachers. They simply wrote down what they feel is important in education. I'm saying what they feel is important in education is probably just as influenced, if not more influenced, by their own education more than their own actions. I would think that a set of college students should think the way the results showed, too. The sample size is too narrow to get the whole picture. I don't think you would get recommended into the University of Tokyo unless you have your stuff straight anyways. I think it's important to think of your sample.

To put it all very bluntly:
The author's execution is what I have a problem with. The amount of samples and who he sampled are strange and his interpetations of the results were a little bit offensive and in a way cliche (as they are things I have heard over and over). I don't really find much new about this. It seems a little bit shallow to me.

Something I overlooked the first time-- he was only living in Japan for the fall? He's lectured in Japan over a decade. How many times has he been there? I found what I think are his books on Amazon.co.jp and they all seem to be about Judaism.

Thusly, I found this to be a little misleading:
As a New York-based psychologist specializing in personality study, I've been lecturing frequently and collaborating in Japan for the past decade. As a result, seven of my books have now been translated into Japanese. Last fall I served as a visiting professor at the University of Tokyo, where my wife (a third-generation Brazilian Japanese) and our two tots were comfortably housed on campus, a brisk walk from historic Ueno Park.

I'm not a statistics expert by any means, but I think there are little or no conclusions other than "this is what 150 students in the most prominant university in Japan feel about Japanese traditional social values" that can be drawn from what he's done here. That campus by Ueno seems like a bubble and may or may not (probably isn't) representative of Japan as a whole.

[dogsbody70]

excuse my comments I need more time to reread the original item on this thread.

Should we ever generalise about a country and its people?

Books I have been reading about the japanese are written by outsiders. Maybe outsiders can gather their opinions with an unbiased/or maybe biased eye.

I have a copy of the chyrsanthemum and the sword written by the anthropologist Ruth Benedict back in the forties and of course the pacific war had just been fought--------------

I also have other books but it is difficult to find one written by a japanese author about their country and society.


Ruth Benedict was American also. I like to read about the culture-- the Spirit of Japan.


Having read a lot about the Pacific war-- URGH------------ and American occupation in Japan-- the current problems over the american Base in Okinawa---. I have learnt a lot that I had been unaware of. The firebombing of Japanese Cities before the awful Hiroshima /Nagasaki.

IN Britain I hardly heard anything about that war and it is only recently that I have realised more of what happened-- and I pray it will never happen again.

I feel that much was hidden on many sides.


Perhaps this subject will not be allowed on here I don't know but I am genuinely interested to learn more about Japan the country and its culture.


Somewhere in the original message on this thread, something about not admitting sorrow for something that surely if one has hurt or upset somebody then surely a genuine apology is right.

I always find it hard to say "Sorry" but if I know I am in the wrong of course I will do so.

ALso surely a THANKYOU is good manners and polite. Surely it is rude to take everything for granted-- and not acknowledge kindness etc with a thankyou is very rude.

I have only met a few Americans--Although we speak the same language-- don't we-- in many ways we are poles apart.

I don't think its a sign of weakness to admit error. We only learn from mistakes or we should.

In our country many of the good manners I was taught as a youngster are disappearing and there seems not to be the common courtesy that I knew.

If JAPANESE desire good manners then surely that is a good thing we should all have them and also respect. Respect is rapidly disappearing here in England. I like the way my japanese friend is polite. she once told me that japanese people cannot show their feelings. I don't like to generalise as I feel we are all individuals but if the custom is not to show feelings then sometimes it can be hard to understand someone. I hope I have not offended anybody here as that is not my intention. with respect, Babs in UK

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I think a better title should be "Differences between Japanese culture and American culture".

That would remove the negative connotations of the "withstand", but would also make it a title that would be so unremarkable as to be lost in the pile of other works on the subject.

Though I can probably cite examples to support every one of the author's conclusions, I agree that the sampling was far too small and probably not conducted under very strigent controls. While it is a good place to begin discussion of the disparate aspects of the two languages & cultures, it is far from a definitive analysis and appears to have its own built in biases.

[steven]

dogsbody70, I get a lot of what you're saying.

"Should we ever generalise about a country and its people?"
I think there are benefits to doing so as well as pitfalls. People who are unqualified to say stuff about another counry often spread misnomers and thigns that aren't exactly facts. People who have done plenty of research and have lived somewhere for a while and gathered a lot of first hand experience might have more insight to offer. That different perspective from a native is also something that is important (for better AND for worse).

I think I stated my problem with the person who wrote the article featured in this thread in my previous post here, if you care to even read all that.

I feel that much was hidden on many sides.
Such is the case with any war. What usually happens is the winners of wars often have more control over the history than the losers. World War II being a relatively modern war, we can look at things a little more objectively (although the living history aspect of it is unfortunately not going to be for much longer).

The firebombings are indeed a very interesting subject. Although it may not be common knowledge, the information is very available-- the fire bombings caused more damage. Entire cities were completely erased by them. My dad loves history and is always talking to me about it-- he brought up the fact that you can find out percent-wise how destroyed cities were by firebombings. I live in Toyama and didn't know that it was 100% destroyed by teh bombings until recently.

Growing up in southern California, I was eventually made aware of the fact that many Japanese Americans were removed from their land/homes and sent to camps. Some of my friends' parents grew up there. My Grandpa grew up in a place with a lot of Japanese people and his friends were some of those kids that got sent away. He also fought in the war. I wish I could ask him more about that. It's hard to complain about things now days when you think of that generation of people.

Somewhere in the original message on this thread, something about not admitting sorrow for something that surely if one has hurt or upset somebody then surely a genuine apology is right.
I don't quite follow this, but I'd imagine politics is what plays a part in these problems. That goes on both personal and governmental levels. People play politics, too... that's how governments get that way to begin with.

ALso surely a THANKYOU is good manners and polite. Surely it is rude to take everything for granted-- and not acknowledge kindness etc with a thankyou is very rude.
I'm sure I mentioned it somewhere up above... Saying thank you is certainly good manners in both English and Japanese. I think some people act like Japanese have a bigger understanding of thank you than English speakers. I think both countries' people understand the meaning and to discount English speakers' understanding of it is a bit of an insult. Another thing (anecdotal/my own experience): I've heard some people complaining about Chinese people not saying thank you and being impolite around here. My wife came home after work (she sells makeup) one day and was complaining about all the Chinese people she sees and how they are ungrateful and never say thank you. I was interested in why that was moreso than badmouthing Chinese people with her. Surely there was a reason (although sometimes there truly isn't). In this case, there was a reason. What I found on a quick google search was that Chinese people don't say thank you because it's almost considered rude in that it creates distance. They don't expect you to say thank you to them, so why should they say it to you? It makes things more friendly that way. The Japanese have a phrase called "みずくさい”-- I think that is similar to what I'm talking about.

Americans and English people are totally different. The cultures, although they share a lot of things, are also different. The languages, as a result, are also different. There's no reason why they shouldn't be. Likewise, if you travel around Japan, people from different areas in Japan will be different (just like in England or America, I'm sure).

In our country many of the good manners I was taught as a youngster are disappearing and there seems not to be the common courtesy that I knew.
This is something I have noticed too, both about Japan and America. It could be another aspect of globalization. It could also just be that people don't put as much emphasis on certain manners as others. You have to admit though-- times are changing. They don't teach internet manners in school as far as I know. Who teaches cell phone etiquette or any-other-new-technology-that is-to-be eiquette. Furthermore, how do you define or what is good or not good... and how do you justify that?

If JAPANESE desire good manners then surely that is a good thing we should all have them and also respect. Respect is rapidly disappearing here in England. I like the way my japanese friend is polite. she once told me that japanese people cannot show their feelings. I don't like to generalise as I feel we are all individuals but if the custom is not to show feelings then sometimes it can be hard to understand someone. I hope I have not offended anybody here as that is not my intention. with respect, Babs in UK

This is a very interesting topic. I think a lot of people struggle with this when learning Japanese. Did you know that Japanese people (speaking from my experience here) see westerners as frank and almost blunt? Japanese even have a word for their roundabout way of saying things-- あいまい. It is indeed considered rude to lose your cool and while they don't show their feelings the same way westerners do, I think it's almost a joke to say they don't show their feelings (as you know, Japanese people will say that about themselves... westerners will also observe this about them). I think it is often obvious when someone is angry or sad or whatever. It's called eye contact and learning to read in between the lines. If you can't do that, a Japanese person may call you "KY". I think people in general act differently in different situations. Maybe people are calm and reserved during work, but then go wild as soon as they're off the clock. Excuse me for using outdated words, but they used to call this the "5時男". The way you act in the work place, or with people you don't know very well may be different than how things are in America or England. Regardless, I think everyone acts differently depending on the situation no matter what country they're from. Japanese might just be more vocal about these things. I think Japanese people might misunderstand western people when they get excited over something-- they might look SUPER excited to the Japanese person, where they would look somewhat interested to a westerner. It's just a cultural difference. 言葉の壁=文化の壁. That's what I think anyways.

I'm not in the least offended by anything you said and I thought you had some intereseting observations. I certainly hope and think that other people aren't offended by it.

[dogsbody70]

dear stephen thankyou very much indeed for your well thought out reply. I plan to take time to study all the messages on this thread more thoroughly.

I am a senior citizen born in London just before WW2 so hope that is okay.


I will send a longer reply later. domo arigoto gozaimasu.