What I don't like about Japan, but won't make me leave

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

So in the end, the reason we disagree is because what you think the word 'sorry' means is different to what I think it means.

Without the context of previous quotes, I'm not sure. I would say it's a definite possibility.

With my example, 'I didn't wake up because my alarm batteries ran out and my mum didn't wake me up' would you accept it would have just been better to say, 'I'm sorry I'm late.'?

I would consider both those to be incomplete. The first shows no remorse and does appear to shift blame. It's not an apology at all. The second only shows remorse for a specific mistake, but nothing else. Is the second one better than the first? Apples and oranges. The first isn't even an apology. The second is not a complete apology. I would accept neither.

Or what would you actually say instead? I'd never do this either, but if someone ended up doing it, they'd have to figure out how to say sorry somehow.

Honestly, I don't know. I tried so hard to keep my mother out of everything I did, at all times, even as a child and as an adolescent, that it would be hard for me to get into a situation where I might reasonably say, "my mother didn't do X" and not obviously lying. She was the very last one to know about anything. Using her as any part of an explanation would be an obviously ploy to avoid giving a real reason for my mistake.

I haven't lived with my mother for many years, and in the few months I did live in her house while I was a working adult, I involved her in absolutely nothing, even less than when I hadn't been an adult. I had my own key, my door, my own money, and we talk more now that I am 7,000 miles away than we ever talked when were on opposite sides of the house.

If I had asked my mother to wake me up, and she had failed to do so, I probably wouldn't mention her at all. She would have been unnecessary if I had checked the batteries on my alarm clock, so I probably would just mention the alarm clock. This is pure speculation, but I would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry I'm late. It was my responsibility to make sure my alarm clock worked, and I did not. I am investing in a multi-alarm system so that I can make sure this does not happen again."

Remorse - check
Understanding why the mistake happened - check
Admission of guilt - check
Plan of action to prevent the mistake again - check
Promise to implement the aforementioned plan - check

This apology is complete.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by noodle

To be honest, I think the best thing to do, is mix PE class but have levels. So, the best play together, the worst together. Just like they did in all the other subjects! I spent 1 week in the worst math group there was, and I wanted to kill myself! When they moved me up to a better group with everyone having the same level, I felt like I was learning!

We had a mixed top class PE group, then Set 2 Girls, Set 2 Boys, Set 3 Girls, Set 3 Boys. I was in the lowest set for PE because I didn't like it, and when I got the opportunity I didn't go because I wanted more time to do actual coursework. (Yeah I really really hated PE haha.) I was in top set for everything else. God knows how I got in top set maths, haha.

The education usually puts all the best resources in the middle sets, because they can push up the league tables this way. The bottom set are usually labelled as 'no hopers' so they just leave them alone. Top set are usually able to manage by themselves and get the results they need on their own, so all the resources go into pushing the middle sets to get the grades. Pretty crappy way of doing it IMO, but hey. (I did Education Sociology)

Anddd this is way off topic

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

If I had asked my mother to wake me up, and she had failed to do so, I probably wouldn't mention her at all. She would have been unnecessary if I had checked the batteries on my alarm clock, so I probably would just mention the alarm clock. This is pure speculation, but I would probably say something like this:

"I'm sorry I'm late. It was my responsibility to make sure my alarm clock worked, and I did not. I am investing in a multi-alarm system so that I can make sure this does not happen again."

Remorse - check
Understanding why the mistake happened - check
Admission of guilt - check
Plan of action to prevent the mistake again - check
Promise to implement the aforementioned plan - check

This apology is complete.

Lol, fair enough then. I suppose it depends on the situation, if you said that in (my) school all the other kids would be a bit like, LOL WTF. But it would probably be best in a work environment. I still wouldn't say that though. (Then again we know that neither of us would actually do it.)

[Tsuwabuki]

Frankly I am so far removed from the "student" part of the "teacher-student" relationship, that I don't even remember being late to classes and being asked to apologise in public for it. My classes were so large (core classes) or so informal (senior thesis, pedagogy, upper level history and English, graduate studies) that if I had been late I would have been A) unnoticeable or B) not disturbing anyone.

That's university. In high school, I was always that "get the best seat first" person, and I was never late to class unless I was detained by a teacher or school function, and then I had a note.

I know that when students are late to my classes and actually disrupt it, I expect the full apology above. And I expect it from my Japanese students. Suffice to say, I rarely have a student significantly late enough to disrupt the class as a whole that does not have a very good reason for doing so, and it usually comes in the form of a note that tells me where they were and is signed (or hankoed) by another teacher. At the worst a student comes in after the "Hello, Class" but before the lesson has started. I might twit them a bit, but not enough to crossover into humiliation. Enough to know I'm not upset and enough for them to avoid doing it in the future. I do not ask for an apology of any sort, lone "sorry" or otherwise.

[Nyororin]

In regard to the apologies...

I think we all need to step back and realize some very important things in this discussion.

First, the original example was not a natural one. Tsuwabuki did his best to sort of change it into the style of apology he does make, and would expect from someone else. I think it is unfair to judge things based on that example.

Second, this style of apology has clearly worked for him and in his surroundings outside of Japan. This isn`t really a discussion about why people aren`t accepting his apologies, or why people think he has strange expectations when it comes to apologies.

There is no "right or wrong" in this. There is only cultural difference - something that exists even within the same language and the same country. It is an interesting subject because we can compare these differences, and see some of the reasons that they clash - even when the sentiment behind them is similar. It`s also not something that is talked about in depth all that often.

There is nothing wrong about his apology style, just as there is nothing wrong in mine, MMM`s, MissMisa`s, etc. There is just a difference between what is normal in our lives and locations. I probably wouldn`t be happy with Tsuwabuki`s apology or if he expected that sort of apology from me - but I`m sure that it is the other way around in his case. He wouldn`t be satisfied with mine or my expectations. This is where cultural stress emerges, so it is a wonderful thing to find the conflict points and understand the thinking behind them.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

In regard to the apologies...

I think we all need to step back and realize some very important things in this discussion.

First, the original example was not a natural one. Tsuwabuki did his best to sort of change it into the style of apology he does make, and would expect from someone else. I think it is unfair to judge things based on that example.

Second, this style of apology has clearly worked for him and in his surroundings outside of Japan. This isn`t really a discussion about why people aren`t accepting his apologies, or why people think he has strange expectations when it comes to apologies.

There is no "right or wrong" in this. There is only cultural difference - something that exists even within the same language and the same country. It is an interesting subject because we can compare these differences, and see some of the reasons that they clash - even when the sentiment behind them is similar. It`s also not something that is talked about in depth all that often.

There is nothing wrong about his apology style, just as there is nothing wrong in mine, MMM`s, MissMisa`s, etc. There is just a difference between what is normal in our lives and locations. I probably wouldn`t be happy with Tsuwabuki`s apology or if he expected that sort of apology from me - but I`m sure that it is the other way around in his case. He wouldn`t be satisfied with mine or my expectations. This is where cultural stress emerges, so it is a wonderful thing to find the conflict points and understand the thinking behind them.

+1

Hear, hear!

This is precisely why I started the topic in the first place. To identify culturally induced feelings I have when confronted with modes of thought that are different from my own.

Apologies and gender issues took on the forefront, but some of the others are just as connected. I can't eat things that look at me. I find it creepy. My Japanese peers have no issue. I cannot eat natto because I associate the sliminess with things that are either not food or are food that has spoiled. I have trouble driving on Japanese roads because they seem tiny, curvy, without the "safety features" I associate with properly built roads, and so I get scared when driving on them.

This is all about cultural association. What feelings and meaning we attach to words, actions, tastes, smells, even architecture.

I think it is a good discussion to help us understand each other better.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Nyororins post!

I agree~

Though I did hear the 'alarm clock and mum' excuse loads in high school, haha. Others included 'I missed the bus,' 'Traffic,' and 'An old lady fell over so I had to help her.' The type of people that were constantly late were rarely the type to bother helping old ladies, but hey

[nikajp]

im danica.. new member of japan furom.. how's everyone??

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

There is no "right or wrong" in this. There is only cultural difference - something that exists even within the same language and the same country. It is an interesting subject because we can compare these differences, and see some of the reasons that they clash - even when the sentiment behind them is similar. It`s also not something that is talked about in depth all that often.

I think it boils down to individual expectations and personality as well as culture. Maybe even just the kind of job you're in. I've worked in a variety of fields and I tailor my (thankfully rare) apologies to suit the receiver. One place I work (with children) seems to favor the wordy kind of apology that tsuwabaki was talking about. It's a cover all bases to ensure no misunderstanding kind of approach.

Old boss, however, would have responded to that kind of apology (ie, I did XT I will now do Y and Z to ensure blah blah) with a "Oh well DONE! Do you want a $*(@^%* gold star? Get out of my office and go do some damn work." and basically expect the guilty party to swiftly make up the error in time, money or better work than waste breath on 'mea culpa'.

and both work environments are very typically english.