What I don't like about Japan, but won't make me leave

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Having my explanation judged would, quite honestly, be the most upsetting thing to me. As no two people share the same lives, what might be a perfectly acceptable answer for one person may not be for another.

Perhaps I wasn't entirely clear what I meant by "like." That sounds a bit too much like it's up to my personal whim. I'll try to explain below.

For example, if I apologize and then are asked "Why?" I would give a basic answer - I overslept, it was transportation related, etc, and apologize again. I`m not going to go into why I overslept, or what exactly happened with the transportation. I would never give an extended explanation as even if it isn`t looked at as an excuse, it still seems far too "personal". (I am assuming that these are all business / professional situations - not between friends as that is a totally different thing.) I would feel like I`m making the assumption that the other party cares or should care about my personal life and issues, which seems far too "friendly" for anything professional.

These are professional settings, yes. And this may be the crux of the issue right here. Yes! It does show I care! And that's the point. As a manager I want my people to know that I care about the reasons for their mistakes. That I am willing to understand the circumstances behind them. I also wish to make sure they themselves understand the reasons so that if they haven't already created a plan to avoid making a mistake in the future, we can work together to create a plan that does so. We're a team, and I would be a horrible manager if I didn't take care of my people.

Likewise, if a manager shows absolutely zero interest in anything beyond an "I'm sorry, I won't do it again," then just as you or MissMisa would question my sincerity based on my phrasing, I would question how much the manager cares about me as a person or how committed he or she is to building a team. Even if I recognise that my assumption may not indicate the manager's intent, I am much less likely to go to him or her for help in the future, and more likely to play "cover-my-arse" when I do make a mistake. A refusal to hear me out in full, when I am doing my best to be sincere, breeds resentment.

I learned a lot of my managerial skills dealing with adolescents, and then later, with sailors and midshipmen in the US Navy. Now, I am a teacher. I take my responsibilities seriously in all my jobs, and when my people make mistakes, it is my duty and obligation to to know what's going on behind those mistakes and help me people deal with them as best I can. Mitigating circumstances can cause mistakes to be made more frequently. Certain factors can be introduced that can make a person more liable to make mistakes. Is this person not at fault? Of course not. Personal responsibility is of paramount importance. And I am not suggesting it is my duty to do my subordinates jobs for them. It is my duty to make sure they have tools to do their jobs. A repeated failure of my crew, my sailors, or my students is as much my fault as theirs.

What, by the way, would you consider a good answer? An elaborate detailed one? Something that is a "good story"? I ask this because the main reasons for me ever being late is generally not considered a "good" excuse. But for me personally it is probably the best and most understandable one. Personal bias is going to pop up when judging these answers. I know I wouldn`t really take "there was an accident so more traffic than I had expected" to be a good excuse - you should always leave early enough that a bit of traffic won`t make you late. But for me, this is the main reason I am late for anything.

A good answer is the truth. A better answer is the truth with a plan of action. A bad answer is a lie.

To me, saying that there was an accident on or on the other side of the bridge is a very valid excuse for being late. But to someone who doesn`t know that I live where I live, and who doesn`t know my back up plan and the fact that I do leave with plenty of time to spare just to be safe in such situation... Is not going to be impressed with that "excuse" for being 5 minutes late.

If it's the truth, and if you have a plan for avoiding this in the future, then it's more than valid. I will accept it at face value, until you show me you are making this a pattern, that you are not following through with your plan of action, and can no longer be trusted.

And I do not want to have to give someone my whole life outline just to get "forgiveness" for a single case of a 5~10 minute delay. I would be insulted to be asked to explain that far, and doubly insulted if I did tell someone why and they counseled me on it.

Forgiveness is a bit too much of a religious term for me. "Apology accepted" is as far as I would go. You would only be counseled if you lied. That's all I meant by an answer I wouldn't like. If a student or a sailor lies to me, they're getting counseled. I can usually tell.

The same here for the golden rule - I don`t know what would be a valid reason in someone else`s life. They don`t know what is a valid reason in mine. I don`t want to need to know that in a professional relationship, and I don`t want to burden someone else with that knowledge.

The truth is valid. A lie is not. An earnest and truthful, "I can't talk about it, it's personal" is fine. If it becomes a repeat answer, then we're going to have to go into details if you want me to try to help you out and be understanding about an ongoing issue.

I certainly wouldn`t interrupt, and probably wouldn`t even comment on the situation. But in my mind, I am going to see someone who gives that long and detailed an excuse in a fairly negative light. It doesn`t matter the tone or the meaning behind it - for all I know they could be lying like crazy about the reason. All I really care is that they acknowledge that they are in the wrong and that they aren`t going to let it happen again.

I don't see why. Shouldn't you give the person the benefit of the doubt? Don't they deserve to be taken at their word until a pattern occurs? How would you suggest to help them if you don't know how they made the error in the first place?

If the reason is that they were completely stupid in managing their time, forgot about the appointment, were doing something very private, etc... All I am doing by making them explain is pushing them to come up with a good lie. (I seriously doubt they`re going to be honest and admit something embarrassing...) Again, everyone makes mistakes and has secrets so judging them on a single event is unfair.

Really? I admit embarrassing things all the time when I make a mistake. I believe it to be the right thing to do. I do not lie. Just the other day I screwed up and admitted, "I read the wrong line on the schedule. I'm sorry. It won't happen again. I'm color coding my calendar to make sure it doesn't." To me that was the perfect apology. Sincere, with a reason, and a plan of action. And it took all of five seconds to say aloud. If someone turned around said, "I don't care why, and I don't care about your plan to fix it," I would be shocked and offended. Clearly this guy doesn't think of me as a person, I might as well be a machine.

Just wanting an apology, and wanting them to not do it again is what I would consider kindness on my part.

I'm not sure I understand this. Kindness is done without obligation. An apology, both sides, indicates some sort of act that requires one. I'm not sure I would see an apology as kindness, but rather as mandatory.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

And if my gym class WASN'T seperated, I would have certainly NOT done it. In England, gym classes (It's called PE over here) are seperated at high school. Why? It's because that's when young people are developing and growing as teenagers. It's the time when they are body consious, and PE usually requires gym clothes, shorts, tshirt and so on. I would feel wholly uncomfortable to be with males at this time. To change the clothing would be impractical when doing sports, so they just seperated the two. If you wanted to do sports with the guys, it was fine, you just had to go to the after school classes.

In class in England, you are usually sat 'girl, boy, girl, boy.' They claim it's to 'encourage people to mix,' but it's really so you aren't sat next to your friends, which for most people are usually of the same sex, and chat and disturb the class. I thought that this idea is pretty old fashioned, but I wasn't particularly bothered because the majority of my friends were male anyway.

I don't think you should be talking about "England". At my high school in England, most PE lessons were mixed! The only time there was any separation was when we done two sports at the same time, say netball and basketball! Even then, it was the pupils choice!

Same thing goes for the classes. It was always up to the teacher to decide how to sit their pupils! Some teachers done it alphabetically, others boy girl, boy girl, and some just didn't care at all!

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Likewise, if a manager shows absolutely zero interest in anything beyond an "I'm sorry, I won't do it again," then just as you or MissMisa would question my sincerity based on my phrasing, I would question how much the manager cares about me as a person or how committed he or she is to building a team. Even if I recognise that my assumption may not indicate the manager's intent, I am much less likely to go to him or her for help in the future, and more likely to play "cover-my-arse" when I do make a mistake. A refusal to hear me out in full, when I am doing my best to be sincere, breeds resentment.

I really don`t think that demanding a detailed explanation and plan for the future is evidence of "caring". It would feel - to me - like the manager is overstepping the bounds of a professional relationship. My personal life isn`t really any of their business. A good business team doesn`t require a friendship, and wanting to know my personal situation is hopping into friendship territory.
You seem to think of a lack of personal interest as a lack of caring - I see it as a boundary. Personal issues don`t belong in a professional team... If someone does have incredible personal issues that make it impossible for them to fulfill their position... No matter how big of a tear jerker, or how incredibly wonderful a person they are - they should be removed from the team and either moved elsewhere or given time off to recover. It`s unfair to everyone else to have a personal relationship and accept the reasons behind someone screwing up because of a personal situation.
Whatever the reason may be, the end result is the same, and even if you say that it only sounds like you`re personally judging the reasons - it is in the end down to personal whim.

I learned a lot of my managerial skills dealing with adolescents, and then later, with sailors and midshipmen in the US Navy. Now, I am a teacher. I take my responsibilities seriously in all my jobs, and when my people make mistakes, it is my duty and obligation to to know what's going on behind those mistakes and help me people deal with them as best I can. Mitigating circumstances can cause mistakes to be made more frequently. Certain factors can be introduced that can make a person more liable to make mistakes. Is this person not at fault? Of course not. Personal responsibility is of paramount importance. And I am not suggesting it is my duty to do my subordinates jobs for them. It is my duty to make sure they have tools to do their jobs. A repeated failure of my crew, my sailors, or my students is as much my fault as theirs.

I think there is a huge difference between someone in a position of teaching and guidance, and someone simply in a business relationship. I have completely different expectations for someone I am simply working with, and for someone I am responsible for. A student needs life guidance. A new employee in training needs work guidance. Someone who just happens to be on the same team or who I just have a passing work connection to should not, and it is not my place to offer them guidance.

A good answer is the truth. A better answer is the truth with a plan of action. A bad answer is a lie.

So... A good lie with a fake plan of action would be okay too, right?

If it's the truth, and if you have a plan for avoiding this in the future, then it's more than valid. I will accept it at face value, until you show me you are making this a pattern, that you are not following through with your plan of action, and can no longer be trusted.

But there is no way to confirm whether it is the truth, and whether they honestly plan to go through with the plan. Sure, you can`t know whether an "I`m sorry" is honest - but if it was a fluke event it shouldn`t really matter. What matters - and you seem to agree with this - is that it doesn`t happen again. I would pretty much do the same as you are saying here - I would accept the apology at face value, and accept the promise that it won`t happen again. If it DOES happen again, and if there is some pattern, etc... Then I would look into the issue and care about what is causing this.

Forgiveness is a bit too much of a religious term for me. "Apology accepted" is as far as I would go. You would only be counseled if you lied. That's all I meant by an answer I wouldn't like. If a student or a sailor lies to me, they're getting counseled. I can usually tell.

But you can`t always tell. There are some very good liars out there, and they can be very convincing. This is probably one of the biggest reasons I personally prefer the apology style I do. There is very little room for lying other than one that would become obvious - if they aren`t sorry and aren`t going to make sure it doesn`t happen again, it will be pretty clear to me because it probably will happen again.

The truth is valid. A lie is not. An earnest and truthful, "I can't talk about it, it's personal" is fine. If it becomes a repeat answer, then we're going to have to go into details if you want me to try to help you out and be understanding about an ongoing issue.

That the issue is being repeated is a problem. I`m talking about a one off. Things change when the problem happens over and over. And I would expect someone to tell me something in detail if it is something that will prevent them from following the agreed schedule. (As saying that it won`t happen again would be a lie on their part, I would be upset that they didn`t tell me.)

I don't see why. Shouldn't you give the person the benefit of the doubt? Don't they deserve to be taken at their word until a pattern occurs? How would you suggest to help them if you don't know how they made the error in the first place?

Actually, this is pretty close to what I am saying. I am willing to take someone`s word and give them the benefit of a doubt on the first incident. Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone deserves to learn from their mistakes. The key difference is that you want to know the reasons behind that first mistake, but I am happy to take their word that they are sorry and that they won`t happen again without knowing anything deeper.
If this does repeat, well, that is different and I would ask what is going on. But until them, I would be willing to accept an apology and believe that they do intend not to do it again - regardless of the details.

Really? I admit embarrassing things all the time when I make a mistake. I believe it to be the right thing to do. I do not lie. Just the other day I screwed up and admitted, "I read the wrong line on the schedule. I'm sorry. It won't happen again. I'm color coding my calendar to make sure it doesn't." To me that was the perfect apology. Sincere, with a reason, and a plan of action. And it took all of five seconds to say aloud. If someone turned around said, "I don't care why, and I don't care about your plan to fix it," I would be shocked and offended. Clearly this guy doesn't think of me as a person, I might as well be a machine.

I was thinking something more along the lines of something much more personal and embarrassing. Reading the wrong line on a schedule is a mistake, but it wouldn`t rank in the same territory as... say... having a sudden attack of diarrhea on the train and leaking, then running home to change. Or say, having a rare fight with the spouse and them getting mad and taking the car you needed for work. Or any of the other countless situations that really are not something you want to have to explain.
I would never say something like that - but it is indeed irrelevant to me. It`s not that I don`t care. It`s the details I don`t care about.
You know you`re in the wrong? Okay.
You plan to prevent the same thing from happening again? Okay.
The whys and hows aren`t the important part. I trust people to actually make a plan of action and follow it without telling me about it.

I'm not sure I understand this. Kindness is done without obligation. An apology, both sides, indicates some sort of act that requires one. I'm not sure I would see an apology as kindness, but rather as mandatory.

I meant it as a trust related thing. I guess "kindness" wasn`t the best wording.
I don`t want to intrude into anyone`s life. I don`t want to put them on the stand for a simple mistake or problem. If they do know they`re in the wrong, and they do intend to make sure it doesn`t happen again - how they do this is up to them.
I wouldn`t want anyone to intrude into my personal life and personal affairs for a simple mistake or problem. I feel a person who accepts my honest apology and my word that it won`t happen again is going to win a lot more points in my book than someone who wants to know exactly why and exactly how I plan to do that. I would feel that I am being put on the spot, and that if I don`t have the type of answer and plan they want to hear that it will negatively effect their view of me.
I can only imagine someone else would feel similarly if I asked the same thing of them.

I think that a lot of this is a cultural thing, and that I really have lived here long enough that the whole idea of being made to defend myself seems a lot more demeaning than just ending the issue with an apology.

[SSJup81]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Stating reasons of how the mistake was made is not the same as shifting blame. There is no logical progression in the argument that it is. Words matter. That "fancy language" shows not just the sincerity of the apology and an understanding of the mistake that was made, but also gives the person you're apologising to a plan of action for correcting that mistake.

IMO, I think it probably depends on the reason given. The one that you posted earlier sounded...well, I dunno. It does sound like the "blame game" to me. Now, if in something like a traffic jam, I could see a person mentioning that, and then explaining how he/she will leave earlier to avoid the heavy morning traffic, but going on about your alarm clock or not having someone wake you up sounds like nothing but a person trying to talk his/her way out of getting into trouble...then again, you're also giving a solution to prevent it from happening again.

I don't know why, but if I'm late to work because I overslept, I wouldn't say anything or give a reason. I'd just apologize for being late and make a mental note of what I can do so that I don't oversleep again. Unless I'm asked, I won't tell.

At SunTrust, I was late a few times, but I had a legit reason for that and my boss would cut me some slack. I used to pick up a coworker that worked in another department. He was a blind guy, though. Sometimes waiting on him, would cause me to be a bit late, especially like that one time where he had gone out to dump some garbage off right before I got there, and actually misjudged his walk or whatever, and had a tough time getting back to his place and stuff. In that case I felt it was warranted to explain that to my supervisor.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

I really don`t think that demanding a detailed explanation and plan for the future is evidence of "caring". It would feel - to me - like the manager is overstepping the bounds of a professional relationship. My personal life isn`t really any of their business. A good business team doesn`t require a friendship, and wanting to know my personal situation is hopping into friendship territory.

I would disagree as to what constitutes friendship territory. This certainly would not constitute friendship territory. In fact, I would be less likely to explain myself to a friend, because a friend would know I had a good reason, or I would be apologising for not having a good reason, too.

You seem to think of a lack of personal interest as a lack of caring - I see it as a boundary. Personal issues don`t belong in a professional team... If someone does have incredible personal issues that make it impossible for them to fulfill their position... No matter how big of a tear jerker, or how incredibly wonderful a person they are - they should be removed from the team and either moved elsewhere or given time off to recover. It`s unfair to everyone else to have a personal relationship and accept the reasons behind someone screwing up because of a personal situation.

Personal issues that cause mistakes become professional considerations. And I concur, that someone should be removed if the personal issues become a pattern. The goal is to find out how they can be prevented from becoming a pattern.

Whatever the reason may be, the end result is the same, and even if you say that it only sounds like you`re personally judging the reasons - it is in the end down to personal whim.

Eventually, I must make a decision on if to remove someone, as is mentioned above. I will do this only if I think the issue is unmanageable. My people deserve the chance to work it out before I fire them.

I think there is a huge difference between someone in a position of teaching and guidance, and someone simply in a business relationship. I have completely different expectations for someone I am simply working with, and for someone I am responsible for. A student needs life guidance. A new employee in training needs work guidance. Someone who just happens to be on the same team or who I just have a passing work connection to should not, and it is not my place to offer them guidance.

I agree. Yet I am not the one who needs an apology if I am merely a coworker or a passing connection. That's what managers (or officers) are for. The manager represents the team and can take an apology for me. I should not be involved in asking for one. It isn't my job, and I am not personally offended. If I was, I would spend an awful lot of my time angry at my coworkers. All of my recent comments, and my comments below, presume I am the one who heads the team. As a simple team member, I am not going to touch an administration issue (which an apology for behavior in the workplace falls under). It's not my job, and should rightly be considered meddling by both coworker and team leader.

So... A good lie with a fake plan of action would be okay too, right?

If you're total jerk, sure. But when I find out you lied to me, blatantly, there are going to be consequences. But yes, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just be prepared to get disciplined. If I had the power, I would probably fire you. If you were a midshipman, the honor board would kick you out for that alone. Your mistakes would be immaterial next to your lie.

But there is no way to confirm whether it is the truth, and whether they honestly plan to go through with the plan. Sure, you can`t know whether an "I`m sorry" is honest - but if it was a fluke event it shouldn`t really matter. What matters - and you seem to agree with this - is that it doesn`t happen again. I would pretty much do the same as you are saying here - I would accept the apology at face value, and accept the promise that it won`t happen again. If it DOES happen again, and if there is some pattern, etc... Then I would look into the issue and care about what is causing this.

Oh, trust me, as I am sure you know, lies about performance unravel themselves rather quickly. Better to be truthful, because you may repeat the mistake six months later, and it may be as flukey as the first time. I quite disagree that a plan of action should not be discussed immediately. I think it's only fair to show commitment to your assertion that it will not happen again.

But you can`t always tell. There are some very good liars out there, and they can be very convincing. This is probably one of the biggest reasons I personally prefer the apology style I do. There is very little room for lying other than one that would become obvious - if they aren`t sorry and aren`t going to make sure it doesn`t happen again, it will be pretty clear to me because it probably will happen again.

Not always, but as previously stated, when it does happen again, and it becomes obvious I was lied to, the hammer will fall. I take that much, much more seriously than a good worker who is seriously trying to combat a personal problem and may repeat a mistake somewhere down the line.

That the issue is being repeated is a problem. I`m talking about a one off. Things change when the problem happens over and over. And I would expect someone to tell me something in detail if it is something that will prevent them from following the agreed schedule. (As saying that it won`t happen again would be a lie on their part, I would be upset that they didn`t tell me.

)

You can sum up a reason and a plan of action in two sentences, maybe even one with a subordinate clause. No more than ten to fifteen words, tops. I see how you could see it as personally prying. I don't see how you can fail to see why I do not see it that way. And I certainly don't understand the unwillingness to allow a sincere apologiser to say it.

Actually, this is pretty close to what I am saying. I am willing to take someone`s word and give them the benefit of a doubt on the first incident. Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone deserves to learn from their mistakes. The key difference is that you want to know the reasons behind that first mistake, but I am happy to take their word that they are sorry and that they won`t happen again without knowing anything deeper.
If this does repeat, well, that is different and I would ask what is going on. But until them, I would be willing to accept an apology and believe that they do intend not to do it again - regardless of the details.

Yep, that's the difference. I think that information should be included in the first apology, and I think I've probably explained why a few times now as we trade posts.

I was thinking something more along the lines of something much more personal and embarrassing. Reading the wrong line on a schedule is a mistake, but it wouldn`t rank in the same territory as... say... having a sudden attack of diarrhea on the train and leaking, then running home to change. Or say, having a rare fight with the spouse and them getting mad and taking the car you needed for work. Or any of the other countless situations that really are not something you want to have to explain.

Oh, surely you don't expect I require that much information do you? That's a whole different level than the examples I gave or what I would expect. Simply saying you were ill and needed longer than usual to recover and that it was a freak occurrence that cannot be adequately planned for would cover my requirements. As for the spouse, that would be a "family emergency" and the same reason for no plan of action would be provided. Those are not lies; they are vague, but adequately reflect the level of detail I would require.

[Tsuwabuki]

I would never say something like that - but it is indeed irrelevant to me. It`s not that I don`t care. It`s the details I don`t care about.
You know you`re in the wrong? Okay.
You plan to prevent the same thing from happening again? Okay.
The whys and hows aren`t the important part. I trust people to actually make a plan of action and follow it without telling me about it.

The whys and the hows are as important as the the admission of guilt and the promise to avoid a pattern of mistakes. An apology is incomplete without them, either as the apology giver, or the apology receiver. I trust people to make a plan of action and follow it, but I'd like to know what it is. If they need help, I can offer that help. Trust, but verify.

I meant it as a trust related thing. I guess "kindness" wasn`t the best wording.

I'm still not following.

I don`t want to intrude into anyone`s life. I don`t want to put them on the stand for a simple mistake or problem. If they do know they`re in the wrong, and they do intend to make sure it doesn`t happen again - how they do this is up to them.

Indeed, it is up to them, but I still feel it is part of my duty to evaluate their plan and to offer advice. I do this because I care, and because it is part of my job. I have no interest in belittling them, causing them discomfort, or blowing holes in the plans they do have. I do it because I wish to give direction. As a supervisor, manager, team leader, naval officer, or a teacher, giving direction is in my job description.

I wouldn`t want anyone to intrude into my personal life and personal affairs for a simple mistake or problem. I feel a person who accepts my honest apology and my word that it won`t happen again is going to win a lot more points in my book than someone who wants to know exactly why and exactly how I plan to do that. I would feel that I am being put on the spot, and that if I don`t have the type of answer and plan they want to hear that it will negatively effect their view of me.

I would want someone to show they cared enough about me as a member of their team to consider the reasons for my mistake, and work with me on preventing those reasons from reoccurring. I would certainly not feel on the spot, nor would I be concerned that my plan of action would be insulted or seen negatively, and if there were flaws in it, I would want them to be pointed out. God knows, when I do make mistakes, I can use all the help I can get!

I can only imagine someone else would feel similarly if I asked the same thing of them.

Well, if I ever need to apologise to you, will you accept my full apology, knowing the spirit of sincerity in which it is given? And perhaps give someone who uses the same apology "format" the benefit of the doubt that they are not equivocating or evading blame, but rather are sincere?

I think that a lot of this is a cultural thing, and that I really have lived here long enough that the whole idea of being made to defend myself seems a lot more demeaning than just ending the issue with an apology.

That's what it comes down to. If asked to explain yourself, you would feel demeaned. If I was cut off or thought negatively of because I explained myself, I would feel demeaned. And do feel demeaned, actually, which is what started this whole side discussion.

I understand why Japanese people are not interested in hearing my full apology. I just wish they understood why I feel I need to give the full apology, and how upsetting it is to have half of it ignored, especially when given in complete sincerity.

There should be some attempt to accept both kinds of apologies depending on who they come from and understanding the spirit in which they are offered.

Originally Posted by SSJup81

[font="Times New Roman"][size="3"]IMO, I think it probably depends on the reason given. The one that you posted earlier sounded...well, I dunno. It does sound like the "blame game" to me. Now, if in something like a traffic jam, I could see a person mentioning that, and then explaining how he/she will leave earlier to avoid the heavy morning traffic, but going on about your alarm clock or not having someone wake you up sounds like nothing but a person trying to talk his/her way out of getting into trouble...then again, you're also giving a solution to prevent it from happening again.

MissMisa chose the reasons. I just rewrote it. It's not my fault, it's not my fault!

All seriousness, I probably would not ever utter such an apology in reality. For one thing, I don't wake up late. I haven't been able to sleep past 0650 in years. I haven't need an alarm clock since Fall 2003.

It was probably a bad example for a serious full apology. The one I wrote about misreading the schedule is probably much more realistic.

I don't know why, but if I'm late to work because I overslept, I wouldn't say anything or give a reason. I'd just apologize for being late and make a mental note of what I can do so that I don't oversleep again. Unless I'm asked, I won't tell.

Every job I have ever been late to has asked why if I left it out. When I was a supervisor at a cinema, and I was trained to ask why. In the Navy, I was asked why. Sometimes I even had to submit "why" in paper form! The reasoning behind the full apology I have defended here made sense then, and it makes sense now.

[TalnSG]

As I was reading the comments about the obasans, I was reminded that I have been dealing with this behavior every morning on the train platform. Except its not an obasan..... it is from two 40-50 yr old American men in Texas. Rude, inconsiderate and overbearing is a learned behavior and not limited to cultures.

Natto - well Tsuawuki its seems there is about half of Japan that agrees with you .... and the other half with me.

The apology issue is not a problem for me. I was raised by someone who always expected forst the apology and then details to verify I knew what my mistake was. I prefer the briefer Asian assumption that the reason is known, though I tend to lapse into what I learned growoing up.

The segration in schools is nothing new to me. From at least 6th grade on, my U.S. public schools all segregated the PE classes and sport (that was 6 different shools in three different parts of the country, so it was a good sampling.) Unless it was homemaking or shop, it didn't usually happen in the classroom - at least not formally.

The only thing I would expect to have problems with (when I finally get to visit) is the smoking.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by noodle

I don't think you should be talking about "England". At my high school in England, most PE lessons were mixed! The only time there was any separation was when we done two sports at the same time, say netball and basketball! Even then, it was the pupils choice!

Same thing goes for the classes. It was always up to the teacher to decide how to sit their pupils! Some teachers done it alphabetically, others boy girl, boy girl, and some just didn't care at all!

Is that so? Every other school around here does all that. Maybe that's just this area then or something. Sounds pretty lucky you didn't have an annoying seating plan D: But I wouldn't wanna be with all the guys, ew. LOL.

I went to a state school (aka, one you DON'T pay for, public, private, blah blah blah are terms that are confusing) It's the most average school you'll get, slap bang in the middle of the league tables, in the middle for the area, in the middle for money spent on it. *Shrug* I just presumed that since all of my friends from other schools are the same it was just a regulation thing in England. My friend who goes to a private school (one you DO pay for) has the same thing. Segregated PE classes, and boy/girl seating. (He is down South, I'm up North)

Actually, come to think of it, you could choose whether or not to be 'segregated'. If you picked GCSE PE, then boys and girls were mixed. Everyone else was just in girl and boy groups because they didn't really care about PE. It wasn't strict though to be honest, if the guys were playing football and we were doing something else, you could just go and join them if you wanted to. To be honest, it seems like it was done for practical reasons rather than anything else. It's easier for them to just say - girls over there, boys over there, instead of fiddling around with alphabetical orders and all that. (PE teachers are lazy Lol I so hated PE.)

To adress the whole apology thing, I do feel our opinions are different. I still kind of don't get why you need a big 'explanation.' I would consider myself a good manager for NOT asking for a big explanation because it would show I have faith that they will not do it again, and an apology is enough to show their sincerity. Asking for anything more than that just seems like I'm suggesting they are untrustworthy, and making a big deal out of being 5 minutes late.

'I'm sorry I'm late, I slept in.' Would be enough for me. 'I'm sorry,' is a term that means to me that you understand your mistake and you won't do it again. 'I slept in,' is the reason, the admission of guilt, taking the blame yourself. If you need to justify your apology, then I would feel you are being unsincere about saying sorry, since you need to elaborate on it.

Maybe you are always asked 'why,' but I never am. Maybe it's not that 'nobody cares,' it's just that people have enough faith in you to know that you aren't going to do it again. And if you say you aren't going to do it again, then don't. If it's something ongoing and unavoidable, which means in the future you could be late again, that's where an explanation is needed.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I find the generalisation of the USA apology to be slightly offensive. Nyororin was joking, but I am unsure if MissMisa was. That being said, let me rewrite the apology to how I would say it:

"I'm sorry I'm late, I woke up late, my alarm clock's batteries were dead. I also spoke to my mother before I went to sleep asking if she would be my back up, she agreed but did not follow through. I plan to replace the batteries, buy a second alarm clock with a plug, and ask a buddy to call me as well. This way I will prevent the mistake from happening again. It's my fault that I didn't put even more protections in place, and I will endeavor to prevent a repeat of this mistake."

This is very different from the tone used above in the other posts. When a subordinate makes a mistake, I expect all of the information above. Not just an apology, not just a promise that it won't happen again, but an explanation of why it happened, and how the subordinate will attempt to prevent it from happening again. I cannot evaluate how a subordinate learns if I don't know what processes are involved.

If you would read into the "mother" line as shifting the blame to her, you would be wrong. No blame is being shifted. Blame remains on the person apologising. It was my fault for trusting my mother to be a reliable back up, just as it was mine for not checking the batteries, and mine for not having a second alarm clock.

Making a excuse is different than giving an apology. You are missing one important word in your "apology".

I am sorry I am late, BUT my mom didn't wake me up when I asked her to the night before...

In my experience Americans don't apologize when they feel they don't need to. The "but" negates the apology, and excuses like the one you wrote are like fingernails on a blackboard.

If you do not want to shift the blame to your mother, then don't mention her, because that is exactly what it sounds like you are doing. If your mother isn't trustworthy, then why are you asking her to wake you up? If you want to take responsibility, then take responsibility and apologize without making excuses.

But you aren't really going to ask me to believe that apology above is something you would really say in an actual conversation is it?

[bELyVIS]

Originally Posted by TalnSG

As I was reading the comments about the obasans, I was reminded that I have been dealing with this behavior every morning on the train platform. Except its not an obasan..... it is from two 40-50 yr old American men in Texas. Rude, inconsiderate and overbearing is a learned behavior and not limited to cultures.

Did you notice how friendly most people in Texas are until they get behind the wheel? I and my wife never saw anything like it. Talk about contrasting.