I like both Ninja and Samurai, both have a unique style. But i think shaolin Monks beat them all XP

May I point out that that has nothing to do with my pride? Cyprus is partially ours and I wasnt alive in the time of the Ottoman empire. I am not of Ottoman descent Ronin4hire. My father is a Central Asian Turk (Turkic/Turkmen) and my mother is a nomad from that area also. What about the pride of:

- Americans (ultra capitalism, native-american issues, Iraq/Afghanistan, Vietnam)
- Germans (WWII)
- Dutch (Indonesia)
- Indonesians (Maluku)
- and many others?

Can't they be proud? :) I thought so..

No they can't be proud in my opinion.

I am not talking about being proud of those issues, I'm talking about being proud despite those past/present problems. But if that is how you see this, so be it! :p

On-topic
Samurai are more noble than ninja's!

Ninja seems cool.

Again !
 

Wow you people start it again :confused:

That was my Forum Before !
Old members know that...

^^^
Because of their knowledge they got involve in politics which was a derail from been warriors then eventually got power hungry and caused heavy Feudal wars causing innocent civilians to die.

What does the nature of virtue's have to do with my disagreeing that unquestioning faith, loyalty and selflessness as virtues?

And no I don't think that Samurai were appalling... but I don't think they were exceptionally righteous either.

Even today we don't know much about ninja because of the secretive history.

As for samurai, we have to distinguish pre-Edo samurai and Edo samurai.

Samurai class of the Edo military governance was more of scholar-politician oriented role, not 100% warriors that we know in the entertainment aspects.

Only righteous in the Confucian and Zen Buddhist (Rinzai or Soto) contexts and point of views,

Really? How so?

So Zen buddhism and Confucian thought would endorse a law which enabled Samurai to execute peasants who they deemed disrespectful?

Zen Buddhism and Confucian thought would endorse unquestioning loyalty to his master no matter what as well as a feudal caste system?

It is that Bushido the product of Confucianism (more like neo-Confucianism) and Zen Buddhism. Both of them reinforce each other under the particular medieval Japanese political situation throughout a long span of history.

Particularly the Edo military governance is the pinnacle of Confucian style of rule.

Confucianism brings the social attitude; Zen Buddhism brings the philosophical contexts of why this Confucian social attitude is justified. Both are attentively look up the role and value of what is to be a samurai historically (the military people usurped the old imperial rule).

Confucianism is not about law; it's about man's merit of being worthy to rule a state or people. Hence, modern legalism in Confucian-cultured countries does not work well straightly. And it contributes the unusually bad ups-and-downs in East Asian politics.

Overall, it is just the social system at that time that influenced this style of rule.

I don't know if I answered your question well.

I don't know either... I really don't know much about Confuscious thought apart from the fact it emphasises social harmony and the family.

Do any of us REALLY know considering they are long gone:rolleyes:

i say ninja over samurai but do think location, weather, and what type like rocky or etc have a factor :vsign:

ninjas are always gonna be cooler than samurais there is just too much going on with them, with samurais all u really get is the sword !

why so ?

the only thing i like about samurai is the sword!! - man the sword is beautiful - but remember beauty is a form of illusion - the ninjas knews this - so yes they stayed in the shadows - that is what stealth is about!

I dont buy all of that honour dignity and code hoop la la ! - i respect the man that got the job done and ninjas were oh so much more effective killing machines then samurais.

i saw a program on tv a while ago where a guy went to meet some ninjas (he was learning about martial arts) the guy in charge showed him all thsese different skills but at the end he pulled out a DESERT EAGLE and said "we adapt" ! :D

that is why ninjas are cooler than samurais ! F*** pride just kill your opponent :D

in which other cases, the ninja was a shadow from who ever controled them, isn't much difference from a comon criminal, except for his highly training, but in these era there are too many trained criminals.

samurai other wise, is japan warrior for excelence.
highly trained, honor code (non violated), social example, good maners, a samurai until the day he die. he has his part on military history.

in simple words:
-ninja==criminal, cowardy
-samurai==example man, non fear

or another way of looking at it is :

-ninja==criminal, cowardy = ALIVE - WINNER
-samurai==example man, non fear = DEAD - LOSER SSSSSSS !! feel it burn baby !!

Sure, samurai were known for their code of honor, but ninja had that as well, only different. Ninjas are moreso survivalists, and not all samurai were good examples and fearless.

And besides, ninjas knew that survival on their side and death for the enemy B.A.M.N. was what mattered on the battlefield. "Honor" just makes it easier for you to get killed.

from a logical way, yes.

but ninjas were not for war, like samurais.
they just some mision, durty all off them.
and samurais were prepared for all their life.

Remember this guy?

Samurai were experts in many different weapons. The large sword is for ceremonial purposes.

So if you think Ninja's are better because they have more "tools" or whatever, you're wrong.

Whether you think ninja's were "cooler" than Samurai simply depends on your taste.

The shroud of mystery surrounding ninja history and tactics is luring to some while the romanticized portrayal of the Samurai is luring to others.

I actually prefer ninja... in pop culture and folklore... ninja had magic powers.

I think when a Samurai would be challenged by a Ninja, the Ninja would be put away for good. The Samurai are true masters of harmony in battle.

Ninja = dead, because of the betrayal by a fellow Ninja or because of a dangerous mission which is based on money, rather than it's own and other people's wellbeing. No one gives credit to these cowards.

Samurai = powerful, honorable and long-term value committed masters, oblivious of fear.

No, if the ninja came ready, it would be a done deal unless the samurai was QUICK with reflexes, or if the ninja was slow. Ninjas use the unexpected, as I've said before. One on one, unless one or both of those factors I mentioned before were in play, the samurai would most likely die without interference, especially if disarmed, because they weren't taught any form of hand-to-hand or hand-to-weapon.

I can agree with that betrayal thing if it was a war. And again, not all samurai were honorable, committed, or oblivious of fear.

That's the point. Most Samurai had/have fast reflexes.

But still, ninjas have tactics. Nothing can save you if the enemy knows how to work around your strengths.

That is an interesting debate.

If you don't care, I'd like to give my own insight on the topic.


About samurai.

There seems to be a lot of stereotypes and misconception about what is really a samurai.

First, samurai are an hereditary class. You don't become samurai, you are born samurai. So it mean there was all kind of samurais. That also mean there was also some very weak samurai.

The vision of the fearless and virtuous samurai who would commit seppuku after a defeat is pretty much the supreme ideal of what a samurai should be.
In fact, only a minority of samurai would be like that.

Whoever said samurai were praised is wrong. They were feared and respected because of they power and their superior social class
Of course, some were praised for their righteous virtue, but in overall they were considered as arrogants by the lower classes and not so very liked.

The Samurai code, the Bushido, was part of the samurai education. They were told all the virtues they had to follow; loyalty, honor, courage, ect.

It doesn't mean they were all following that code perfectly.
For exemple, while loyalty is the most important of the bushido virtue, there were lots of betrayal and side switching during the Warring states period.
Also, the bushido was saying that if a samurai became lordless, he should immediately commit seppuku. But after major battles where a clan was destroyed, most of the samurai who fought for that clan in fact turned Ronin.

Hara kiri was more a way to preserve oneself honor when he failed or did a mistake. In a situation where there was no other choice, a samurai would prefer to kill himself than to live in the disgrace of everyone. It was also a way to preserve the name of the family.

Of course some were more virtuous than others but in overall, the code was more like a line of conduct than established rules to follow.

Some people think that samurai were fighting only with swords.
The fact is that every samurai had to wear the 2 swords (Daisho) but they fought with a lot of different weapons in battle.
Spear, Pike, Naginata, Bo, Bow, Flail, even Musquet. And a lots more.
Of course a lot of them were fighting with their swords but not all of them.

I could say a lot more but i guess that's enough.


As for the ninja, I'll leave the topic to someone else

Jaa !

actually no i havent gota clue lol ! but i wanna know now !!

man lol u dont know how much i disagree with you ! the ninja would finish the samurai without question, because the ninja will use any and all tools to end life whereas the majority of samurais only use the sword...

ie - TODAY ! - If a samurai met a ninja - the NINJA would pull out a Semi-Automatic and finish the battle before it began. - thats the point in essence - Ninjas - Kill, and Samurais - fight, thats why samurais are regarded as warriors and not killers whereas ninjas are regarded as assassins!

to think samurais would compete against ninjas is to have a sort of romanticised view about their art - dont get me wrong i love swordplay, - i own a beautiful sword!! but it mainly just looks good, as far as killing goes its not all that great!

believe me in real life the honourable die first and are forgotten first!:)

That's the difference between me and you: I don't believe everything everyone tells me. So no, I don't believe you in this matter of discussion.:)

As for the post above you, of course many don't know about how things went down in ancient Japan, but to explain every single detail about Samurai would be futile. I just like Samurai more than Ninja's. I know the facts about Samurai and Ninja's.:)

SAMURAIII!

and so you shouldnt! - you have your own free will to make up your own mind, when i say *believe me* its just a figure of speech, i am not literally asking you to believe me ! lol

There are probably a million differences between you and I, most notable that you Like Samurais and i Like Ninjas. however i do not listen to everything everyone tells me. far from it, i make up my own opinions based on logic.

You quoted me and said:
and i replied:
I didnt make that satement becasue someone told me Ninjas were badass lol, it is my opinion based on the following logic;

Samurais were warriors and therfore did battle/War/Fight

Ninjas were asassins who just Killed.

So the question is who would put the other away for good, the asassin or the warrior?? Logic tells me that if the ninja had beef with the samurai - he wouldnt go up and *challenge* him! he would just kill him, simple and logical.

Just want to interrupt the geeky nerd fest that is happening in this thread to point out that if anyone wants to actually LEARN something this is the post to read.

Sorry... you can get back to your Otaku fantasies now about Ninja and Samurai

You are misunderstanding. Samurai's lord is also a Samurai.

They never killed people without reasons.

Most of Samurais and Ninjas are originally civilians who armed to survive war era.

So the most strongest warriors in Japan are armed civilians.

See,
Ikkō-ikki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From that link...it seems to me that Ikko ikki are not Samurai.

Samurai are the warrior nobility of feudal Japan.

I suggested the link to make you understand how strong armed civilians were.

Feudal era, like Edo period, samurais are nobility as you said.

But in War era, many civilians armed and fought to survive.

After they survived, they became samurais and Ninjas.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who unified Japan was peasant.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Feudal lords were afraid of their civilians over their enemies.

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was strongly afraid of civilians and taked arms away from civilians.
Sword hunt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After that, feudal era, samurai class became nobility.

Huh?

First of all how is this relevant to anything? Whether or not many peasants became Samurai... Samurai are still Samurai.

In fact you seem to support my idea that in general the Samurai were oppresive and not righteous at all.

I did not say samurai is righteous or strong.

If their lord said burn down a village they would burn it down and kill all the civilians.

They never killed people without reasons. That is all I said.

Not only morals, but also for fear.