Ladyboys * pukes*.


Sorry I didn't see 'The cove' topic, I'll start reading it.

Ok one more question, what about the gerontocracy? A guy living in japan, claims people get better income, according to the time they have been working at the company (he also says there is no other way to get a promotion), the oldest members of the enterprise will always be at the top, whilst the newest will have a lower rank no matter what, furthermore, he also says the only requirement the companies ask for is a college degree, even if it has nothing to do with the activities of the enterprise, since the employees undergo a compulsory training.

P.S. Sorry for my repetitive english, I think I am having language amnesia ~.~

I think that this is nothing but a myth now.
Maybe in some companies it still takes place, but it is not a prevailing trend anymore.

Not only is it possible to bring up these topics without causing a domestic disturbance, these discussions can also go further and be seen more objectively, allowing for a much healthier perspective.
I really do appreciate this.

Getting someone's true honest opinion is a small reward for having your ear split open by someone. :)

Many of my students are working in jobs completely and utterly unrelated to their major.
My gf was doing programming with an English degree for example.
When it comes to lawyers, doctors, that kind of thing, it's a different story obviously.
The degree gets you the job.
In Japan most companies offer extensive training in the first months of employment, and in bigger companies you hop around in all the departments so it may not be until 6 months at a company until you know what your job (and fate for the rest of your life lol) will be.

Seniority is still a big factor, but Japan is changing.
Speaking of change;
Women are still expected to get married and leave the company, just last night though, there was a story on the news of a boss who said "you're next" to a woman in anticipation that she'd get married and leave the company next. He mean it as a good thing, like I'm sure you can find a nice guy soon. But he got sued for sexual harassment.
Does that sound a little like the 90s in America? It should, Japan is breaking out of it's old fashion male-domination, not very quickly, not very smoothly, but it's happening regardless.

All three statements are true. On a side note, the degree non related jobs is why we have so many incompetent people here. In my company people are made to believe that they can do something they have absolutely no skills in. They trully believe that learning from a senpai cannot fail, and if they try hard enough they will be good at whatever they try to learn.

As to the women - discriminatory behaviour towards them is visible.

One of my dear good friends is trying to be a stewardess for any Japanese Airline she can, she's had many interviews already.

weight, to 3 digits of accuracy
height
body mass index
age
gender
full body photo
3/4 portrait photo
face photo
a few other things that westerners wouldn't understand (like exact address to ensure she isn't buraku)

that's information required to step in the door

in the interview, it gets way more intense

those guys get thousands of applicants and only hire a hundred or so tops, they can afford to be picky, but they aren't very discreet about it lol

when I tell students that on Air Canada flight there are male flight attendants and fat old women also, they generally don't believe me at all

Well you would need to try hard to find fat chicks in Japan.

I flew so many times with JAL and I yet to see some hot f. attendants, though you are right I've never seen a Japnese male f. att.

Whatever you do, you can't beat Filipina fl. attendants :D

YouTube - ‪Cebu Pacific Dancing Flight Attendants‬‏

I hate male chauvinism.
We have a lot in our country, there was even a case of a woman that wasn't allowed to vote, simply for being a woman(it was of course, taken to the court, but I guess you understand my point).

This is a good post, I like it. :)
I think people wanting to move to Japan should be expose to information like this.

Perhaps we should delve into "the futile struggle with reaching out to Jaopanese poeple, and in matcheting through all those shells and masks of artificial politness. On the other hand, plastic politeness is way better that outright rudeness".

To me this is probably the most difficult thing to adjust to for people trying to live in Japan, and the way it affects non-friendships.

Daaaaamn!!!! Why doesn't the dude get himself a whore loool! Personally nothing turns me off more than a women that asks me to buy her a drink....

Anyways there has always been some sort of theft but it doesn't sound too bad in Japan lol....just push away the girls that throw themselves at you. Over here in Canada its not that bad but fights outside or outside of clubs\bars and theft isn't something that is too rare.

But daamn those women sound vicious though

@ James, ty mate, yup, it is hard to relate to someone that does not want to open. This is exactly why I have no Japanese friends at my age. And I hate shopping. :D

@ Fr3sh This is the same mechanism that secures hostess clubs existence. Ego. Showing off. Low self esteem medicine need. Effortless entertainment. In Japan it goes a bit deeper, though.

These women are not scam artists, they work at hostess clubs and that's exactly what you go to get when you go into one of those places. They are employees of the club, and may even have their pictures around the entrance.

Nah man not anymore. That was before. Hostess clubs make no money now. Those girls are hunters. Move in groups, usually 2, in case the guy gets out of hand. Japanese girls don;t do it, they stick to their clubs and returning clients.

Before it worked as such: girls had a dohan, brought client to the club, then went out with him to the shotbar, and called him a cab so he can safely go home. Now, it is a deal between clubs ran by the Black guys (connected to Yakuza) and the girls (that mostly were strippers or whookers). Way back, I know that some strippers made up to 9-10 mln yen / months in stip joints alone. Once their income went down, they found another way to fix that - scams. Also, lots of clubs was closed by the Police after many cc scams were reported. Even US Embassy was warning ppl about it.

So now in Roppon gi you have 70% of wally hunters, 20% of military, and 10% of people who should not be there.

Hostess clubs don't make nearly as much money as they did during the bubble.

They're still around and doing okay, though.
A few of my students are hostesses actually, I love hearing their stories.
Another thing I love about them is they are way more open about themselves than most women are, it's not a shameful job.

Working for a fuzoku, though, is shameful. :)

I guess you are talking specifically about Roppongi only. I was just talking about hostess clubs in general. I don't want people making the mistake of thinking a hostess bar is a brothel... even if they do charge about the same prices.

Hostesses is one thing, strippers is another, bj clubs and other shocking places are also a separate thing. Hostess job is great if you like to party. And it is not shameful, agreed. The only drawback is that you have to spend time with drooling pervs. You paid to eat, drink and sing, you receive gifts and whatnot. There are two types of hostesses. The smart ones - who wrap the client around the finger and milk him like a cow. The dumb ones - who shagg the client. The first way is an art, wheras the other is a ret-art.

Remember that Japanese hostesses can easily build and maintain a base of clients. Outside Roppongi, foreign clubs don't make that much money anymore. Also, Japanese and foreigners are scared that they will get scammed, so they prefer Japanese clubs.

That's actually a bit of a problem, each of my hostess students gets taken out to nice restaurants nearly every night, and then to the club to drink and chat. The problem is they gain a fair bit of weight eating out every night and drinking every night, which is obviously bad for business. So they have to work out a lot haha.

Oh the difficulties of being paid to be pretty and sociable.

wasn't hostesses supposed to just stay in the bar? since when do they go out with clients? it's like special kind of hostess?

well, my knowledge of this comes form movie Osaka love thief so could be wrong. they showed some 8 guys drinking all the time with women. they went to one client to another all around - like bees on flowers :cool:

A typical hostess would see her "clients" mostly in the bar/club. Popular ones will also go on dates with certain clients, but it isn't a "special kind" of hostess, just a popular one. Often the date will end with the client taking the hostess to the club, and he will continue to drink (and spend money) there.

You said something along the lines that it is rare for someone Japanese to have strong opinions about politics or religion. My response was that people DO have strong opinions, but are less likely to give knee jerk reactions. Not taking it personally then lashing out at someone is not a sign that they don`t have much of an opinion on it. I read your message to mean that you felt it did.

You`re asking people to do something likely even more uncomfortable than having that layer of plastic wrap in there makes you feel. Saying things directly is something you do to people you don`t like - people who you don`t really care what they think of you and your manners in the long run.
In asking friends to stop doing that, you`re asking them to treat you like someone they don`t give a crap about.
If the truth is clear, then they know the truth is clear, and the tatemae is kindness on their part.

Something you might find interesting - ask around what constitutes 性格悪い. Also, what kind of behavior by a friend would make them "引く".

In general, I don`t think that people would ever get upset about being educated on the differences in ways of thinking. It is when talk of one being superior comes up that people internally cringe. The more obvious and unveiled the pushing of one set of ideas is, the worse they`ll think of the person speaking.

----------------
This thread advances so quickly that it`s hard to keep up.

I`m going to second what MMM has said. More visible, but likely not more quantity. I also have never seen anything like a "street walker".

Actually, most people aren`t necessarily okay with the whale hunting. The majority thinks that it is unnecessary. But there is a difference between thinking it isn`t needed and thinking that Japan should be stopped from doing something that would rob some people of traditional foods.

That is a small area with a local set of rules. It can`t really be applied to the rest of Japan.

This is partly true and partly based on company.
You really only do need a degree (in the proper field, hopefully with good grades). Companies actually tend to prefer a lack of experience for those starting from the bottom as policies between companies differ greatly... And companies love to have ISOs for parts of their operation. They like to train based upon their company philosophy to keep things smooth.
As for company seniority - there are two ways of looking at it.
Pay is generally calculated based on an "age pay" and "skill pay", with little additions for position and the like. Higher your age, the higher the age pay. The more verified skills, the higher the skill pay. There is a great chance that if you`ve been working there a long time you have more of at least the age side, if not the skills, so may be paid more.

As for promotion - that is really a company thing.
My husband is one step away from 課長 level (called マネジャー in his company) at エキスパート・チームリーダー... And he is only 31. He was the youngest to enter his company in the year he did (everyone else had degree plus years of 専門学校), and is by far the highest in rank. Actually, he is the youngest at that high of a rank at all. In his company, which is not special or "non-Japanese" by any stretch, they do normal promotions based on work performance.
It all depends on the company.

Yeah that's my bad, given the nature of my statements I should have been a lot more explicit to say that when I felt Japanese people didn't have such strong opinions about politics and religion, I simply meant to say they didn't take it so personally and react in such an emotional way as westerners do, they stay quite level headed and reasonable even if discussing something they don't believe or disagree with.
That is both good and bad, the good reasons I just clearly stated, the bad is that it can be very difficult to get the truth.

I think if we continue down this path we need to distinguish between white lies and attempts at obfuscating the truth.
If my friend is staying too late at my house, it's okay to say something like "I'm worried you'll miss your last train" or "Won't your girlfriend be upset if you stay out too late?" instead of "dude, go home, I want a little alone-time before I got o bed". Both of those are okay, and that's not the kind of tatemae that irritates me.
but
If I'm going to have a party next month, and I mention it to a friend, and the friend says something like "I'll try to open up my schedule to attend!" and I fully know he has no intentions of attending because he's scared shitless of being in a situation where he has to speak English with new people, and I know he's not going to come. That to me is just...
or even better
If a friend of mine who is always ultra busy, and impossible to make plans with, says something like "hey call me anytime, I'm just bored doing nothing, we can hang out." instead of just saying "man I'm sorry my schedule is so packed, that's life in Japan I guess, you know I wanna hang out but I just can't anytime soon... but I will send a message if something frees up!" (if the last part is true). To me that kind of tatemae is just irritating.

That's seikakuwarui yeah? I was told it basically means being mean, or inconsiderate, generally intentionally. I was also told it takes a lot to be called that, and that people like that can't really have/keep any friends.

And hiku I was told... you'd have to like put shit on your friends face or walk through their parents house naked or do something quite extreme, I couldn't get any realistic examples. Another example was a case of super extreme inconsideration, like telling the guy who's dying of lung cancer that he was an idiot for smoking and he deserves it.
But maybe the first few examples are kimochiwarui-hiku, yeah?

Can you give me your versions of these?

Yeah I agree with that entirely, as long as you aren't pushing or being patronizing or demeaning the conversation can go quite far.

Whereas in the west, if you so much as say
"darwin said ..." to a fundamentalist, or if you say
"in the bible ... " to an atheist you'll get your face ripped off

Nyororin, with your closest friend, have you ever felt an inability to open up to, or be shown their true colors, due to cultural limitations?
How about with regular friends?

I think the biggest issue of a hostess is to have to talk to a boring guy who is full of himself about absolute rubbish, and pretend you enjoy it. And yeah, the drinking part is destroying a lot of girls.

I think the biggest cultural difference is that you feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing. :D

To me, this feels like the same kind of thing. He doesn`t want to outright say that he doesn`t want to go. You`ve been kind enough to invite him. You know how he will feel about it (the fear you speak of) and have extended your invitation. To me, it would read as a completely "friendly" exchange. His view: You know he won`t come, but extend the invitation because he is a friend and it would be impolite not to. He replies with a polite response that shows he appreciates the offer, without saying anything offensive about not wanting to go.

I guess I just can`t see the problem with this...? He does want to hang out. You have your own schedule. Call anytime and hopefully there will be a way to fit meeting up into both of your schedules. If one of you doesn`t push - you, in this case as you`re less busy - then nothing can start.

If you look into what exactly 性格悪い people do to be mean and inconsiderate - I`d say most of it involves being honest (in a very straight way) even when it isn`t what the other person wants to hear. A good example would be asking someone their opinion on clothes that look awful on you. "It looks good, but I really think that something else would make you look even nicer." is OK. "It looks awful. You should wear something that looks better on you." is BAD. Replying to an invitation with "I`ll try to open that day!" is fine. "Thanks, but I really don`t like parties." is not.
Straight and/or sarcastic are bad personality traits.

Think of it literally like taking a bit of a step back. Being too direct, even when obvious, can make people sort of "pull away" from you.

Basically, if a friend started being direct - I would read it as the friendship being over. They no longer give a crap about maintaining a relationship. If they did intend to keep the friendship going but were being direct - it`s 性格悪い.

Not really. I have always found everyone to be pretty open *if the steps of friendship have been followed*. Sometimes people are almost TOO open once you are past a certain point. I have been involved in conversations that are flat out uncomfortable, but I was clearly the only one involved who felt that way. I mean things that feel like they shouldn`t be shared with ANYONE were tossed out like it was nothing.

I don`t really feel a desire to have deep private conversations with close acquaintances, so can`t really say. Asking private things of someone at that level of friendship would be really cringe worthy to begin with. (I would expect them to 引く) :P

You know a real close friend is someone that you should be able to be totally honest with.

Someone you can confide in and know it will go no further.

A real friend is priceless--.

The others?

are they worth having?

yes. they are. just because someone is not a close friend doesn't mean you can't have a good time with them.
or receive/give favours. most of the people in this world work at jobs they got just because they knew somebody who was already in the company.

so please. stop this BS that only "true" friends matter. world doesn't work that way.

what you fail to understand is that we see it as lack of courage to say the truth to their friend, which in our eyes makes him appear not trust worthy. How can I realy on someone that can't be straight with me in casual situation. That is no friend, that is bs. It has nothing to do with being polite, but having no spine to say anything straight up. And this issue goes very deep in Japanese culture, along with "saying things around" as it is "polite", which creates more problems that you could ever imagine.

What kind of people are you surrounding yourself with? This is exactly what pisses me off in many people. Learn how to take the truth. You might just appreciate it in a long run.

there, she has nailed it.

yeah i agree with your statement. I know that it part of Japanese culture there is nothing you can really do about it. but it still very frustating to have to deal with people like that.

I can understand that at first you do know the the person so it make since to not be COMPLETELY open with that person..that is just common sense i think. But how long do you go completely telling little white lies just to keep the peace with someone. If you dont really like the person enough to tell atleast SOME of your real emotions and thoughts then what the point of talking and being around that person.
I understand that it takes time to get to know someone but to always try to hide your emotions or thoughts from the person, your not trying to be a friend or future close friend at all that what i interpet it to be...

I dont know that just my two cents.

Exactly. Also, note that if one is not an easily trusting person (he/she does not easily trust someone) it usually means that that person canot be trusted as well. See, with human relations is like this. You come forward and offer your trust by revealing your true self. If it is not appreciated you simply forget that person and move along. With time, you can tell with greater ease (sense it) who is worth and who is not worth wasting your time on. Consequently, if you do open yourself, people tend to trust you, as they see you being transparent. Lastly, an old Polish saying goes "Przyjaciol poznaje sie w biedzie" - which means that you learn who is your real friend in need. I dont need around me people who require a nappy to be changed each time they have to be assertive.

I think there are a couple fronts going on here.

I believe Nyororin understands how it is perceived by us, she's simply trying to explain how it's perceived by the other side.
I'm not sure if she's taking one side or the other to be honest, just being objective.

I am trying to explain that for westerners even "strong" or "good" friendships with Japanese people tend to feel relatively superficial and weak. Mainly for the reasons that have been delved into quite well.

The fact is that regardless of how we feel about it, it's not going to change the way they do, this isn't our turf, and that you gotta play by house-rules.

Nyororin you said "I (Nyororin) think the biggest cultural difference is that you (James, or westerners) feel the need to get the truth on this kind of thing."
And I agree, this is something that's very difficult for westerners to get past, we've got it drilled in our head that any relationship without honest truth is junk.

Something else I think we need to consider, is that a very good friendship in BOTH Japan and the west, is one in which verbal communication is almost unnecessary, where we just understand each other.

I want to tell a small story of the most hurtful tatemae I received, before I learned to just not believe anything good anyone tells me.

As some of you know, I stopped working for big English conversation schools because they're garbage and went independent, about a year before I did that I asked a lot of my students to describe the "idea English conversation school", I didn't tell them I was actually going to do it. I recorded all their ideas, crunched numbers for feasibility, and then when I saw I could make it work, I decided to do t.
At this point there were about 15 students who I had been teaching weekly for just over 2 years.
I told them I was going to do it, exactly where, and the exact details of it.
I didn't invite any of them to come, I knew they'd feel pressured to lie and say they'd come even if they wouldn't, I'd been in Japan for 2 years after all, I knew that much.
A few of them DID tell me they would come though, out of their own volition, with no pressure from me. I even said they didn't have to do that just because I was their teacher and I'd completely understand if they were more comfortable staying at the school where I had been teaching (Nova, eww).
They insisted they actually did want to come, at this point I foolishly believed them.
Long story short, they each gave me the weakest transparent excuses at the last minute, and none joined.
It's not all bad though, about 4 months later a dozen or so students I had been teaching, who left Nova before I had a chance to tell them I was going solo, ended up finding me and we picked up where we left off.

That amazed me, why the hell even bother throwing tatemae out there when it's not necessary to do so? To appear as being nicer than they really are? To give me false hopes? In the long run they come off a lot worse than if they'd just kept their mouths shut.

it is deceitful to lead some one up the garden path. Too scared to be honest and to say No--Outright.

Wrong, If one person isn't able to trust as easily, there are either personal experiences that forced that person to stop trusting in people, or cultural situations (like the ones you've been talking about), being unable to trust in people, has nothing to do with being reliable.

Not so sure. Overcautiousness builds walls, walls build kingdoms, and that creates wars. I know what you mean, but I don't agree.

No, walls build fortresses, fortresses protect you from danger, danger is bad.

It all depends on the point of view you have, in my case it's impossible for me to trust in people. But since I have no bonds with people, my mood is most of the time very, very stable.

danger makes you stronger so there is no need for walls. Instead of hiding, you should fight. If you have no bonds with people how can you talk about friendship and trust lol.

I have no bonds with people since they forced me not to trust in them, I could have friends, alas, due to my nihilism, I see no point in it.

I am not talking about friendship, I am just stating that trusting in people isn't good to some people, when either the cultural environment (in the japanese's case) or the personal situations demonstrate it.

The fortress is made for peace's sake, there are some dangers out there, that if not avoided, would generate violence, loathful, gratuitous violence.

You know, I once wrote:

Out in a wild on a winter day
Wrapped in a coat of memories
Between a day and a stealth of night
Wondering which path leads home
Tea made of strange green leafs
Warmth of the future’s chime
Innocent snow covers the door
Like melody of things undone
I am sitting on a wooden bench
Dreaming of what is to come


It is good to pause and reflect. Without it we may make the same mistakes. But whatever happens I cannot resist the itch of opening the next door. It brings me power. With trust is like with love. It fucking hurts but its worth it, and you won't find it sitting on that bench forever.

>Love
Love is nothing but a chemical reaction that last about 10 years or so.
I find funny that people write pages and pages talking of its 'greatness', or how the absence of someone they 'love' makes them sad.

Trust in my case, is impossible due to a psychological disorder, even if I tried to trust in people, I wouldn't be able to.

I apologize if this is too harsh, I lack empathy, thus I am unable to predict people's reaction.


P.S. This is too off-topic, if you would like to discuss this further, we should use PM instead.

Oh ok, sorry mate, I thought it was your choice. Well, I hope then, that you will find someone who will allow you to see the other side of the human race.

In another thread, I mentioned that I started working on a miniature model of Tokyo using available n-Scale parts

It looks like someone is already doing something similar:

Tokyo in N Scale

I am not going to stop my little project, but I probably will just make it "partial" tokyo and maybe "migrate" Yokohama closer in my little project.

godwine I hope you carry on with your project.

Talking about trust or lack of trust----------


I grew up learning not to trust anybody. I will not go into details but there was a good reason.

Even now I trust very few people.

I think we all do tell little white lies in order not to offend somebody.

I am rather a direct person-- and often will say exactly what I think-- but I would not want to hurt someone by being deliberately hurtful.

Sometimes silence or not commenting at all about something is a way out.

But it is not fair on a person to kid them that you will do something with or for them-- when you have no intention of doing so.

Learning to say NO can be hard but very useful so one is not forced to do something one does not want to do.

It looks awesome.

One question, how do the japanese learn kanji nowadays? I read in heisig's book that japanese repeat them several times in order to remember them.

However, when I spoke with a native, he said they also use the 'imaginary memory' at some point as well.