Japanophile - and other open discussion
 

Instead of a thread sticking to just one theme, I wanted to open up an opportunity where people won't get flamed for "stay on the topic!!!" It is perfectly fine if you decide to steer off course if your answer to a post is off topic

So I will start something spawing from a different thread I was on. Was in a recent discussion (See the marriage thread). Some users on this site have some interesting generalization or "steretype" about the Japanese (or Asian as a whole) culture and its People. Ideas which I consider to be "Narrow" and "bias" that stem from an obsession of (yeah Japanese Otaku) of the Japanese culture.

What are your thoughts? I mean, I LOVE Japan, and its people, but as much as me being called a Japanophile by my sensei, friends and family, I don't consider "All things Japanese are good". There will always be good and bad in all things (To me thats common sense). For example, someone told me once that "Everyone in Japan really polite and friendly to tourist". But trust me, I've seen some really dirty looks and experieinced some serious pushing on the Yamanote during rush hour, some people are just not as willing to help.

So thoughts??

As for the latter part of your opening, concerning the Yamanote, people push others, regardless of who they are. I've been pushed and shoved and the people who did it weren't very discriminating. I didn't take it as them being especially rude to tourists. That's when I decided to move to the end cars where there isn't much pushing at all even during rush hour.

I believe there are some cool things about Japan and some dreadful things as well. If you can deal with the latter, the former will be that much better!

Agree, and I wasn't implying that they are being discriminating, I am just saying while yes, people are generally more tolerant with tourist, there will definitely be time when they don't give tourist special treatment.

Trips between Yokohama > Sakuragicho on the Keihin-Tohoku Negishi Line is better but the pushing and rudeness are definitely still there... Oddly, I don't remember something like this living around Yokohama when I was a kid...

I forgot to add that they (the pushers and shovers) were discriminating. They pushed anybody and everybody in their way. If you're a tourist, oh well. But then again, I was born in Madrid and lived there for 21 years and the same thing happened on the buses and subway. In Tokyo I didn't mind it as much because, as a whole, I was normally taller than most and it didn't feel as bad if you're taller than they.

I did notice a bit of youthful discrimination when a group of elementary school kids boarded the train on the JR Nikko Line back down to Utsunomiya. I was sitting by myself and a bunch of boys and girls sat in the seat across from me. I noticed quite a bit of hesitation with other kids wanting to sit in the same side I was in and they decided not to sit there. Not to be rude or react immediately, I let some time go by (the train wasn't set to leave for a bit) and then decided to move further up the car and closer to the teachers so they could all sit together. I knew I was the cause of them being separated. Once I moved away, the kids bunched together and sat where I had. I don't know if it they didn't sit next to me because they felt uncomfortable next to a gaijin or what. But that's the only time I had people sit away from me on purpose.

Similar things happened to my Italian friend when I took him to Japan several years back. The first time was at Kaiyukan in Osaka, we were at the area with the Jelly fish, there was a group of Elementry school kid on a school trip. I was chatting with my friend, and a bunch of kids start following him, then one kid came to me and asked me why was I able to communicate with him. Some just stood in front of him and looking at him like a freak show

Second incident was on the same trip, but in Kyoto, we were on our way back to Kyoto from Nara, same thing, elementry school kid, sat across from him and I heard a lot of discussion about the Gaijin, funny thing is, they completely ignore my presence and the possibilities of me understanding them....... the conversation was somewhere around "How come there are foreigner on this train", "Where are they going", "Maybe he is a kaiju" etc etc

My friend actually understood enough to make a laugh out of the whole situation.. it was fun in its own way..

A few years back at the Sunshine City shopping area in Ikebukuro, my friend and I were taking the down escalators when I noticed a group of school kids walking down the corridor in our general direction. Have you ever had one of those premonitions that something is going to happen? Before I could even mention that to my friend, three of the kids in the group darted off towards us. When they got to us, they all said, "Herrow!!!" and ran back to their group giggling. It was as is I could sense the kids seeing us and dared each other to say something. It was a very funny anecdote that day.

I'd love to have some kids try to really speak to me and have a conversation. That would be cool.

A lot of the great things were blown out of proportions even in my own point of view when I first arrived, as were the bad things.
Japan to me was a land of greats and worsts.

The greats seriously overshadowed the worsts though, in fact some of the worsts I secretly home to take advantage of when I get older ;)

By the way, I don't sit beside foreign tourists, .... they STINK!! haha, I bet I did too when I first got here...
And if they don't stink, they're obnoxiously loud, and are ultra KY.

regarding the conversation so far,
kids are hardly a good representation of any culture, granted they are much more honest, but hell if America was defined by the way it's children behaved... lol

I've been on the good and bad end of the discrimination, and I'll take the bad any day for a few days of the good each year :D

I know the rock-star charisma man thing is a bit of a sensitive point and is someone dismissed as a thing of the past, but it's alive and well if you've got what it takes.

and regarding the marriage thread off-topicness,
I've been propositioned to have affairs by more than few married ladies here with absent (probably also cheating) husbands. This land is no different when it comes to people wanting sex/money/love/fun before they die.

When I first arrived here I was walking around Hep5 in Umeda and a group of junior high school girls decided to talk to me and my (Japanese) friend to try out the English they'd been learning.
They actually did very well, I was impressed how well they could speak, kids nowadays in Japan are getting much better English education than their parents did or even 10 years ago.
The girls were super cute, cute in a puppy dog kind of way, not a sex-appeal kind of way, until one of them tried to sneakily put her email in my phone lol, then it was just creepy!

(ps, I'd risk jail time to beat the life out of a grown man who fucks a junior high school girl)

I guess I'm not the approachable kind of guy. Or maybe I do stink! LOL I'm sure I smell different than they do, since I don't buy their hygiene products-I use my American-brought. Well, I'd still love to have such encounters next March.

I do remember another incident on the Yamanote. It was the first time I had gone to Japan as a tourist and I found myself separated from my friend. I took the train from Shinjuku towards Ikebukuro. I'm used to standing by the doors on the trains in Chicago since the trains are much shorter and narrower than the Japanese. I was standing next to a young couple, early to mid-20s and the guy couldn't stop sniffling. After a while I did what I was always taught to do. (Can you see where this is going and how un-Japanese it is?) I went into my backpack and grabbed one of the dozen of so packs of tissues those girls kept handing me on the street and handed it to him. He was visibly surprised and took it. He didn't blow his nose though, though now I know why. After a few stops, they got off and the girl actually turned around to face me and bowed. The look on both of their faces when I handed him the tissues was priceless. I wonder if I insulted them, even though I was just being civil and not expressing my displeasure at the sound of him sniffling. Any comments on that one? II now know my error and that blowing your nose in public is considered rude, but, dude, the guy was just hurting bad!

RealJames..you are like 35 ? o.O


anyway. my friend told me that living with her host family was probably the worst part of he experience that Japan had to offer. while friends at school were cool and fun the family was rather cold. they went to dinner and all the family did was to play game-boy that each one had. same with everyday life - usually watches tv or plays games. even when asked to cook them hers traditional foods they added rice since only potatoes are weird presumably.
............
well many families are like that but for 留学生 it was a bit disappointing since she didn't get much of a practise in a way of speaking with them. Other than that not much of a "pushing" or "stares" from others. probably since it was Osaka and everyone is used to gaijin.

Like James said, its not a one sided thing, I am not trying to say that Japan is only bad either, I mean I still think the good overweight the bad. When we had our honeymoon in Kyushu, we spent the first night hopping between Yatai trying different food. At one of the "shop" we were joined by a group of Highschool teachers that just got off work (it was actually pretty late already, around 9:00 PM). We started chatting and I explained to them that it is our honeymoon. One of them, got up and paid for our meal as a welcome/congratulation gift... to a total stranger! And they even ordered a bottle of Asahi to do a loud "kanpai" with us. Darn friendly!

on the note of the exchage student thing, I think Evanny's friend was just unlucky, most of the people I spoke with had a great time doing exchange in Japan.

My uncle (in Saitama) took in a Exchange student many years ago, the guy's name is David, he had such a good time staying with them (and the overall experieince), he went and open up his own IT consultation business in Japan, and he still visit my uncle every now and then..

For those who don't know, blowing your nose is embarrassing for Japanese people because it draws attention to them themselves which is humiliating etc etc, but somehow snorting it in over and over isn't embarrassing lol,
it doesn't make much sense to me

Well, I now know to make sure I dont stink...lol

I am a very hyper person by nature, but I know I have to hold that back.

Also, I am considered a Japanophile. I hate it when people assume that *I* assume that all of Japan is only good happy life happily ever after shit. I know its not. I just loved it since childhood. My bad.

I don't feel that loving Japan is any worse than loving cars or computers or red headed girls or autumn.
It's when loving it causes you to see other things negatively that it's dangerous.

I dont, though...I love being from a diverse country like America, as well. I have always loved Asia though. I never wanted to live here, even at age four I was telling my dad, "I AM MOVING!"

Agree nohing wrong with being obsessed with anything, but still has to maintain realistic.

Like with my obsession with european cars, they are good and nice, but there are definitely negative aspect to it. Just need to realize it and learn to live with it

What worries me are the people that have never been to Japan and thinks that it's all good. They are going to show up with hightower expectation. As soon as something negative occur, they either goes into denial or will just hate it for life

If you do not appreciate the difference between the Asian community and the Western society.. then how can I help you?

You are trying to pick out some bad spots in the Japanese society instead of realizing on how much more Love they spread around this World.


These are the most lovely people we have on this planet. Far superiro then what we have in the Western society. Here, you get beat down at night several times.. murderer and all the bad is located where we live!
I don't see this in Japan.

When was the last time sombody got beaten to death on a train station in Tokyo? 35 million people live there!!


Also for your other question..

Just take a quick look at the divorce rate between the Western society and the Asian.

Do a google search for akihabara random stabbing. There was also a handful of school girl molestation, school girl killing, government and hospital official corruptions....... I am not saying these thing makes it bad, I am just saying, it has the same problems other countries and culture has. If you have problems finding or believing what you will find, then that's too bad

You are not reading the post correctly, it's not just a few points and I reiterate I am not saying that it's all bad, there are a lot more things that I appreciate about Japan than I don't. I definitely love the country, it's people and culture more than that of other nation. But that doesn't mean I have to praise all things Japan


Just so you know I am Asian and I live in Japan when I was a kid. That doesn't make me a pro with the Asian culture, but I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable

For the last time, I am just saying that it's not all good. It maybe better than where you are from, it only means that you are in a screw up place that cannot represent " the west " as a whole

I'm from Germany and I think Germany represents the Western Society in a good way still.

Every Country has its flaws no doupt. But please realize that Japan is vastly superiro to every other nation out there because of the people and how people treat each other in your home.

You can not walk at night in most American cities and I certainly would be worried walking alone at night in Berlin, Frankfurt..

In Japan you can walk alone, even as a girl at night!



This country is something special. I just want you to appreciate the people and their behaviour a little more then you do so far.

Yes, there are no random shootings in Japan because the weather is hot and people don't know anything better to do with their time than take it out on others. That happens quite a bit here in one of the murder capitals of the US. Severe gun control in Japan aids that.

When I showed people at work the buttons at each station that, when pressed, stop the trains in the area, they were surprised they existed. They're used to having people vandalize or mess with things here. If there were buttons such as those here, the trains wouldn't run very often due to the hundreds of times juveniles and drunks would be hitting them. Social conformity in Japan probably has something to do with that.

And yes, we've talked about the police and some civil rights in other threads, so not everything is good in Japan. But even then, if you don't commit a crime, you're not involved in that aspect of their society....

Think whatever you want, I don't think you even understand what I am saying

Sorry Germany is a Country, it doest represent the west as a whole, its part of the western representation, but just a small part

No, I think you don't understand the difference between your lovely country and the cold Western society.

Have you ever been to a Western country anyway?

Cause then you would realize the difference right away!

I live in Canada, hong kong and Japan prior to that. Just came back from a trip in las Vegas, walked the street safely till 1 in the morning. Was in Miami last year, And Florida the year before.

To answer your question, yes I have been somewhere "western".

I didn't say there is no difference, I don't think I ever said that, and I didn't say I don't appreciate that. My uncle and cousins are Japanese I love them

I am just sauying that I am being realistic, and I will not be in denial of the negative aspect of Japan

Oh don't get me wrong, you should never ever ignore the negative aspects of your country.

However, you always have to value it towards other Nations out there.

And if you do that correctly you will end up on my side.

OK....

Next topic, on the note of weird behavior, maybe James can help answer this

Aside from sneezing, what else did you find is not "polite" but totally acceptable in the "West"???

Or the other way around... Western society consider slurping their noodles (Gnerally any noise during meal) is rude, but thats THE way to eat Ramen in Japan..

I sometimes wonder if you're just taking the piss when you write crap like this. At the very least put something like 'in my totally naive opinion, because I have never actually lived in Japan I think...'. At least then it makes a little bit of sense!

I have a couple of questions for you as well. If Japan is so vastly superior to every other nation why then are they the economic basket case of Asia? Why have they never really recovered from the recession of the early 90's? Why do they have the highest debt to GDP ratio of any industrialised nation on the planet?

Sure there's some truly fantastic things about Japan and its' people but there's also some major issues. The poor economy is in my opinion a reflection of some of those issues. I'd go back and live in Japan again tomorrow if my wife would agree to it. I loved living there more than I like living in Australia but I don't blindly believe that Japan and it's people are vastly superior to to any other nation or it's peoples. It has it's good and bad like any other nation.

Agree, same here, if my wife agree, I would LOVE to go back to Japan and settle there (Providing if I can find a job).. I am proud to have Japanese relatives.. I love them (I am sure I said that plenty of time already), and they really are very very good people.. but I will not go the extent of saying that "Japan is the best", because there is no facts or any means of quantifying that...

You can walk down the street and see the faces of most people going to work and see how stoic and shut-off from society they are. You can trip and fall and most will just walk around you. They would rather not get involved, as a whole, and sometimes walk with blinders in their eyes. That's how Japanese people are as well. So don't think they're the best in the world. They're just human beings just like us.

You don't think I incorporated that when I wrote this? Think again!

Anyway going back to the subject I am currently living in japan now and is planning on extending my stay here for another 7 months. There are aspects of Japan I like and there are other that i do not like for example:

I like the convience of the subway system here
I like that there isnt alot of crime here so i can ride my bike or walk
I am alot healthier since being here.
Make some fairly good associates(maybe friends but not really sure yet).

What I dont like:
:confused:the hanging out style here it a bit difficult (people being busy, house it too small ect...)
:mad: riding a bike in all weather conditions gets a bit much
:( the staring( though i try to ignore so it gotten alittle better to deal with)
Teachers teach for the test not to learn the information(at least in my case anyway)

These are just 4 examples
I have plenty more reasons than that. I been obsessed with japan since I was 12 and always knew that I would come here, but i alway tried to realist as well and since being here, alot of the so called stereotypes are just at first glance. when you stay in a place longer you see the REAL place for it self. But other than that I cant complain it the same everywhere.

This is by FAR the most difficult thing for me to deal with, to this day.
Everything else I've either come to like, understand and accept, or ignore.
But this one point...

I seriously miss just passing by a friend's house after work and knocking on the door uninvited.
Or calling someone out of the blue and hanging out 15 minutes later.

I also miss having like 200 friends, here if you have like 40 friends you're considered socially active lol...

- Being a lot healthier - That's a huge point too... thanks for reminding me of that!

:) your welcome

tho i have to be honest this is part of the reason i could never truly want to live in japan for the rest of my life that and the staring.. but im satisfy満足 with my life now so that all that matters for now.

Yeah I fear it will drive me out of Japan before I make enough money to never work again ...

I keep holding out for the idea I'll meet this obscure group of people who actually do just hang out like westerners do...

wait...so Japanese don't hang out? i was under impression that they often go to arcades or spend their time in photo-booths. or just go shopping...well that was what i thought.

i am also so used to just hanging out. i give a call to my friend, we drive and pick up some sandwiches and then just chill at his house, my house or somewhere else. or go and smoke a water-pipe (hookah) by some lake, river for an hour. not to mention every friday or saturday when you get calls to come to a party or a club.

there's a huge difference between <22 and >22 years old,
university graduation hits, work starts, life ends, no joke

before 22;
it's not so different from western culture

after 22;
chilling at houses, not so much, houses are small and ... well people just rarely do it, girls do it more often than guys tough
chilling out during weekdays, incredibly rare
chilling out on short notice, only with very close friends, and even then.. not really that much
chilling out with a 1 month ahead of time plan, yeah that happens BUT be warned, cancellation due to work or not feeling well is quite likely
work takes priority for most people over chilling out
house parties, incredibly rare

chilling out is planned, organized, thought through, and often cancelled lol

I've met a few people who live outside this culture but it's really rare and uncharacteristic of Japanese people

You shouldn't categorize your 40 Japanese friends to an entire culture.. weren't you the one who told me this? :confused:

I didn't say I have 40 friends here ... read again

I'm hardly generalizing, it's just well known. Seriously, you have no clue if you think I'm generalizing.

Japanese people do not chill out as much as people in the west, much much much less in fact.

As part of teaching English I also teach western culture, at least Canadian.
When I tell my students how often I used to hang out, how often my parents hang out with their friends, what's normal there, without fail every single time I get shock and then "culture difference" or "culture shock" as a reply.
Followed by an explanation much like the one I gave earlier.

i approve this comment. Though i do have planned, organized meeting with some of japanese people (normally a once in a month type thing tho...)

I dont hang out with people from my university that much because well yeah your statement basically explained it all. I hangout with mostly people from my religous group they usually dont cancel plans and we schedule little activities together.
I go over their house for dinner but it usually just with a 3 to 4 people max.

So yeah i do miss that aspect of western culture...i like spontaneous get together, hanging out.

I was trying to remember the idea of spontaneous get together and couldn't lol, I've been away long enough that I can't even believe my own memories of just passing by a friends house uninvited to see what he was up to... but it's true isn't it? It did happen!? didn't it? lol

that would be flat out rude, and you would lose a lot of points with most friends if you passed by their house uninvited just to see what's up

yep you would, i did that once time because i wanted to give her a gift that i made. but i could tell that it wasnt cool to do that so now i made sure to mail first and see it it ok.

In the west, if you pass by somebody house and you didnt go visit them then you would lose points as well....very backward culture....