Gaijin wearing yukata??

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MikeB

They may have done, but it's very unlikely indeed.

Uhuh. Sure. Maybe in your experience. Not in mine.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MikeB

That's very unlikely indeed, being angry in public would seem to me to be by far the more unusual response, bordering on genuinely weird. Though its something that is obviously limited on both sides to anecdotal evidence. I wouldn't wear a yukata "just because" either, but in my experience it's absolutely cool to wear it to matsuri festivals etc.

Ok, you edited your post, so I'll reply again.

Fair enough if they got truly angry, but the OP of that anecdote said "even got a little angry." That sounds to me like they got ticked on a 'jeez, what are you doing, you moron?' kind of level, not an all-out argument. We don't even know if they got angry to his face, or if they just showed their disgruntlement over the issue to the OP. I don't think that's unusual, if the person in question is being particularly embarrassing. Again, only anecdotal evidence, but I've seen several situations where Japanese people would be fairly polite in the face of an embarrassing person, only to bring out the 'ひどいよ！変でしょうね！’ after they'd gone.

As to your second point, there we are in agreement. But in the case of the anecdote; "The guy wasn't wearing it as a joke, he thought it was cool and spoke little japanese which made it even worse." This isn't possibly a 'matsuri' or 'getting into the spirit' situation at all. My point is, basically that yukata-wearing is an act highly bound up by social rules even for Japanese people and acceptance of it when foreigners are involved can be quite circumstantial. So it's not really worth being dismissive of conflicting anecdotes; sometimes when you break it down the reasoning becomes clearer.

[Ryzorian]

If they can have Koreans dressed as Scottish clansmen in full kilts, what the hey. Can't remember if it was a Starburts commercial or Skittles, but they have a couple that have these Korean Scotts...I think they are trying to show a paradox or something, anyhow it might come across as strange at first, but I think folks can get used to it. Specially if it's in good taste.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Ok, you edited your post, so I'll reply again.

Fair enough if they got truly angry, but the OP of that anecdote said "even got a little angry." That sounds to me like they got ticked on a 'jeez, what are you doing, you moron?' kind of level, not an all-out argument. We don't even know if they got angry to his face, or if they just showed their disgruntlement over the issue to the OP. I don't think that's unusual, if the person in question is being particularly embarrassing. Again, only anecdotal evidence, but I've seen several situations where Japanese people would be fairly polite in the face of an embarrassing person, only to bring out the 'ひどいよ！変でしょうね！’ after they'd gone.

As to your second point, there we are in agreement. But in the case of the anecdote; "The guy wasn't wearing it as a joke, he thought it was cool and spoke little japanese which made it even worse." This isn't possibly a 'matsuri' or 'getting into the spirit' situation at all. My point is, basically that yukata-wearing is an act highly bound up by social rules even for Japanese people and acceptance of it when foreigners are involved can be quite circumstantial. So it's not really worth being dismissive of conflicting anecdotes; sometimes when you break it down the reasoning becomes clearer.

It's always nice to read a well thought out and articulate response. I apologise for editing my post, I wasn't aware that you'd already written a response to the first edit. Unfortunately I have to disagree with you though. Your post would make sense if it were true that there are strict rules for governing the wearing of yukata's, but other than folding it over right to left and wearing them only in the Summer months there aren't. It isn't a strict thing at all, yukatas aren't bound up in any strict rules. I'm not sure where you got that from. They are always casual wear.

If you live in Tokyo just take a trip to Shibuya station and see the hello kitty yukatas the gyaru there wear. Or go to Kyoto and get dressed up in the kit that the hostels offer their guests. Granted I wouldn't wear them just to go to work or anything, but I absolutely would and will wear one for the Summer festivals or for a fun trip round Kyoto in the Summer months. I wear one at home a lot because it is so humid in the Summer and a Yukata is about the most comfortable thing to wear. If someone suggests that you can't wear one because of a "this is my culture" sort of prejudice that they're quite frankly being a little idiotic but I've never encountered this from a Japanese person. Thankfully, in my experience, the reaction seems to be quite different.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MikeB

It's always nice to read a well thought out and articulate response. I apologise for editing my post, I wasn't aware that you'd already written a response to the first edit. Unfortunately I have to disagree with you though. Your post would make sense if it were true that there are strict rules for governing the wearing of yukata's, but other than folding it over right to left and wearing them only in the Summer months there aren't. It isn't a strict thing at all, yukatas aren't bound up in any strict rules. I'm not sure where you got that from. They are always casual wear.

If you live in Tokyo just take a trip to Shibuya station and see the hello kitty yukatas the gyaru there wear. Or go to Kyoto and get dressed up in the kit that the hostels offer their guests. Granted I wouldn't wear them just to go to work or anything, but I absolutely would and will wear one for the Summer festivals or for a fun trip round Kyoto in the Summer months. I wear one at home a lot because it is so humid in the Summer and a Yukata is about the most comfortable thing to wear. If someone suggests that you can't wear one because of a "this is my culture" sort of prejudice that they're quite frankly being a little idiotic but I've never encountered this from a Japanese person. Thankfully, in my experience, the reaction seems to be quite different.

I think we can agree that what a person does in their own home is their business, and doesn't really apply to the topic. I'm sure some people wear much weirder things than yukata around the house.

Gyaru, too, are somewhat outside of a norm. They wear yukata as a costume element come fashion statement, and not everyone agrees with their style. They're a specific sub-set of their own, and I bet their choice in yukata is still (yes, i'm going to saying) somewhat bound up in the social rules of the group. Eg; it's got to be cute and girly, have hello kitty on it or whatnot.

Yukata in a hotel are definitely bound by social rules. People who don't normally wear yukata might wear one at a hotel; because inside the hotel it's a norm, and wearing one is 'joining in'. It's almost exactly the same as Matsuri. Sure, it's not as flashy, and much more casual but there's still a social norm, or rule, which says 'inside staying-in-hotel context, Yukata ok, outside staying-in-hotel context yukata a bit odd'.

You already said "Granted I wouldn't wear them just to go to work or anything" or out of season, and why not? Because it would be a subversion of a norm. This is what I mean when I say yukata wearing is bound up by rules, and notably different rules to kimono. Seeing someone by themselves shopping wearing a kimono is statistically unusual perhaps, but not a break from the rule as kimono can still be considered as proper general day attire. Seeing someone by themselves shopping wearing a yukata, you might think, "where are they going?" if it's a nice one, or 'didn't they get dressed properly today?' if it's a thin hotel sort. And if they seem to be wearing it just for the kicks, you might think "how odd!" Compound that scenario onto a large, non-japanese speaking foreign man, and it's understandably a little cringe-worthy.

Originally Posted by MikeB

If someone suggests that you can't wear one because of a "this is my culture" sort of prejudice that they're quite frankly being a little idiotic but I've never encountered this from a Japanese person.

I've never encountered it either. I'm also not sure if they really are so precious about their culture as that, because every time i've tried to get involved in some culture event people have always really pushed the boat out to help me do so. Although I think some of the older generation find it a bit saddening that the traditional arts sometimes only seem to get any interest from foreigners, not young Japanese people.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Columbine

I think we can agree that what a person does in their own home is their business, and doesn't really apply to the topic. I'm sure some people wear much weirder things than yukata around the house.

Absolutely, yes, there was this one thing I bought in the hundr..... Uh... Yeah, they are wonderful to wear around the house considering the humidity of the Japanese Summer! Much better than a dressing gown and much more sightly than simply wandering around in boxers; especially as on sunny days its nice to have the curtains open, albeit with the windows firmly shut and the air conditioning turned up to max!

Originally Posted by Columbine

Gyaru, too, are somewhat outside of a norm. They wear yukata as a costume element come fashion statement, and not everyone agrees with their style. They're a specific sub-set of their own, and I bet their choice in yukata is still (yes, i'm going to saying) somewhat bound up in the social rules of the group. Eg; it's got to be cute and girly, have hello kitty on it or whatnot.

They are sometimes frowned upon, but they're so very widespread they could hardly be considered outside the norm, especially in Tokyo. They may have their own social rules, but that's how fashion develops, by breaking certain rules in order to develop new ones. However, contrary to some people's opinions, wearing a yukata isn't breaking one of these rules.

Originally Posted by Columbine

Yukata in a hotel are definitely bound by social rules. People who don't normally wear yukata might wear one at a hotel; because inside the hotel it's a norm, and wearing one is 'joining in'. It's almost exactly the same as Matsuri. Sure, it's not as flashy, and much more casual but there's still a social norm, or rule, which says 'inside staying-in-hotel context, Yukata ok, outside staying-in-hotel context yukata a bit odd'.

They're really entirely different thing, a hotel yukata is roughly the equivilent of pjyamas. Yes, people might think you were odd if you wore one outside the hotel, but that would be true regardless of your ethnic background. You wouldn't look any weirder than a Japanese person. In fact if anything you'd probably fair better, they might well think "ahhh it can't be helped he/she doesn't understand the different forms of dress, but isn't it nice that they're showing some respect by trying to fit in!" I confidently believe that would be the usual, though not universal, response.

Originally Posted by Columbine

You already said "Granted I wouldn't wear them just to go to work or anything" or out of season, and why not? Because it would be a subversion of a norm. This is what I mean when I say yukata wearing is bound up by rules, and notably different rules to kimono. Seeing someone by themselves shopping wearing a kimono is statistically unusual perhaps, but not a break from the rule as kimono can still be considered as proper general day attire. Seeing someone by themselves shopping wearing a yukata, you might think, "where are they going?" if it's a nice one, or 'didn't they get dressed properly today?' if it's a thin hotel sort. And if they seem to be wearing it just for the kicks, you might think "how odd!" Compound that scenario onto a large, non-japanese speaking foreign man, and it's understandably a little cringe-worthy.

Most Japanese wouldn't wear one full time either, but in the Summer you'd definitely get away with it. The only people to have a problem would be other gaijin really. My Obachan students have tried to MAKE me wear it to school because they think its very cute, they also, both male and female all agree that it's a good thing to wear it and don't understand my slight embarrassment. What I'm trying to say is that the rules aren't really different for anyone, so far as I can tell. My girlfriends dad is getting really excited about wearing one with me to a Matsuri next week!

Originally Posted by Columbine

I've never encountered it either. I'm also not sure if they really are so precious about their culture as that, because every time i've tried to get involved in some culture event people have always really pushed the boat out to help me do so. Although I think some of the older generation find it a bit saddening that the traditional arts sometimes only seem to get any interest from foreigners, not young Japanese people.

Agree with you exactly here, it saddens me too, I'm from England and I'm every bit as enthusiastic about English tradition as I am about Japanese tradition, I'm sad about the radio 4 generation being replaced by yobbishness, but that's another discussion. Younger people do seem to be increasingly drifting away from traditional culture; something that does seem to sadden the older generation somewhat. However, getting involved, from their point of view, or at least what I've heard of it, only helps preserve the traiditions. I've spoken to a number of Japanese people on this issue and they all seem to be in agreement. In fact, thanks largely to Uniqlo, the Yukata is really going through something of a revival in Japan which is great news for everybody, there's loads of new styles coming out and they're becoming ever cheaper and cheaper. Wearing the Yukata as a gaijin only helps solve that particular problem and shows that we as gaijin are willing to participate in Japanese traditions, thus helping break down the barrier and ease any racism that might linger in an extreme minority of people.

Originally Posted by Columbine

You already said "Granted I wouldn't wear them just to go to work or anything" or out of season, and why not? Because it would be a subversion of a norm.

Basic rule of thumb; follow the same rules as everyone else and you'll be fine! I don't think its a one rule for foreigners and another for Japanese sort of situation, at least as far as the Japanese are concerned. Though be warned; don't expect the same reaction from other gaijin. Quite aside from anything else the Japanese seem to want you to participate in their culture; even if you completely butcher it intention seems to count for 99%. Their problem usually comes when people refuse to engage with the things that other people are doing. If you choose to engage you'll get a very positive response; if you don't you'll be treated indifferently.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by MikeB

Absolutely, yes, there was this one thing I bought in the hundr..... Uh... Yeah, they are wonderful to wear around the house considering the humidity of the Japanese Summer! Much better than a dressing gown and much more sightly than simply wandering around in boxers; especially as on sunny days its nice to have the curtains open, albeit with the windows firmly shut and the air conditioning turned up to max!

Funnily enough I was bought a cotton dressing gown from Marks and Spencer to take with me to Japan. It was a little too big so I used to wrap it round pretty tight and the first response I got from my japanese housemate was. "Ooh, a yukata with pockets? What a great idea!"

Originally Posted by MikeB

They are sometimes frowned upon, but they're so very widespread they could hardly be considered outside the norm, especially in Tokyo. They may have their own social rules, but that's how fashion develops, by breaking certain rules in order to develop new ones. However, contrary to some people's opinions, wearing a yukata isn't breaking one of these rules.

Tokyo's pretty exceptional though. Where I lived, I saw a gyaru girl precisely once. They're not wearing yukata in a typical way though, so I still think they stand somewhat outside the rule.

Originally Posted by MikeB

They're really entirely different thing, a hotel yukata is roughly the equivilent of pjyamas. Yes, people might think you were odd if you wore one outside the hotel, but that would be true regardless of your ethnic background.

Thats what I was getting at. Even the romans have rules about being roman.

Originally Posted by MikeB

In fact if anything you'd probably fair better, they might well think "ahhh it can't be helped he/she doesn't understand the different forms of dress, but isn't it nice that they're showing some respect by trying to fit in!" I confidently believe that would be the usual, though not universal, response.

Again, i agree, but here I think it could depend on who the wearer of the yukata is. A man with a japanese girlfriend and her family? Clearly one of the in-crowd. A man by himself? Some stupid tourist.

Originally Posted by MikeB

Most Japanese wouldn't wear one full time either, but in the Summer you'd definitely get away with it. The only people to have a problem would be other gaijin really.

Yeah, often the loudest critics are other foreigners. I remember a party where one of the guys turned up in yukata; he was soundly mocked by the british contingent and greeted with bafflement by the japanese students. But again, context. We were all students in the same class so him turning up in yukata was a) kind of a way to big himself up and b) we all knew he was just doing it to get attention from girls.

Originally Posted by MikeB

My Obachan students have tried to MAKE me wear it to school because they think its very cute, they also, both male and female all agree that it's a good thing to wear it and don't understand my slight embarrassment. What I'm trying to say is that the rules aren't really different for anyone, so far as I can tell. My girlfriends dad is getting really excited about wearing one with me to a Matsuri next week!

No, the rules aren't different depending on your ethnicity, but let's face it, Japanese people have these kinds of rules ingrained over the years they've grown up there. Foreigners have to learn it all more quickly. And we stand out more when we goof up.

Hope you have fun at the Matsuri! 8< I miss ika-yaki.

Originally Posted by MikeB

Agree with you exactly here, it saddens me too, I'm from England and I'm every bit as enthusiastic about English tradition as I am about Japanese tradition, <snip> In fact, thanks largely to Uniqlo, the Yukata is really going through something of a revival in Japan which is great news for everybody, there's loads of new styles coming out and they're becoming ever cheaper and cheaper. <snip>

That's really interesting about Uniqlo. I know a lot of the top sumo pro's aren't japanese, and there's now a full-fledged foreign geisha too. But yes, I think if there's a big boom in trad. culture abroad, it might inspire more people to take an interest. Oh! That reminds me, i read in the news about a manga artist who's just made a series all about kabuki and it's getting really popular with middle-school kids.

Originally Posted by MikeB

Their problem usually comes when people refuse to engage with the things that other people are doing. If you choose to engage you'll get a very positive response; if you don't you'll be treated indifferently.

Mm, true. And also if you engage but insist on doing it kind of the wrong way. I did sumi-e for a year, and on one occasion we were asked to bring in any plant or flower we wanted to paint. My friend chose higanbana; http://imaginatorium.org/sano/pics/b02206hgb.jpg . I don't know if you know about them but they have a strong association with death and picking them is considered unlucky. It's just really not done much. On her way to class she had a number of people stop her in the street to try and tell her about this, although of course, she was already aware, and several of the older ones got very shirty about it.

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by Columbine

Tokyo's pretty exceptional though. Where I lived, I saw a gyaru girl precisely once. They're not wearing yukata in a typical way though, so I still think they stand somewhat outside the rule.

Where were you based?

Originally Posted by Columbine

Again, i agree, but here I think it could depend on who the wearer of the yukata is. A man with a japanese girlfriend and her family? Clearly one of the in-crowd. A man by himself? Some stupid tourist.

There is that about Japanese culture, everything ought to be done in groups. I remember some dude I knew walked into a bar once wearing a yukata and smoked one of those long thin old Japanese style pipes. It was winter so he looked rather odd. Mind you he was a complete weirdo and looked fairly odd no matter what he was wearing. But I think a Japanese person might get a similar response. Still, nobody got angry with him, though we all thought it was a bit funny. If he had have gone to a Summer festival, even on his own, however I don't think anybody would have found it odd.

Originally Posted by Columbine

Yeah, often the loudest critics are other foreigners. I remember a party where one of the guys turned up in yukata; he was soundly mocked by the british contingent and greeted with bafflement by the japanese students. But again, context. We were all students in the same class so him turning up in yukata was a) kind of a way to big himself up and b) we all knew he was just doing it to get attention from girls.

Yeah, the context is out there...

Originally Posted by Columbine

No, the rules aren't different depending on your ethnicity, but let's face it, Japanese people have these kinds of rules ingrained over the years they've grown up there. Foreigners have to learn it all more quickly. And we stand out more when we goof up.

True, but when we goof up they're usually quite forgiving about it. We've all done the toilet slipper thing right?

Originally Posted by Columbine

Hope you have fun at the Matsuri! 8< I miss ika-yaki.

Cheers!

Originally Posted by Columbine

That's really interesting about Uniqlo. I know a lot of the top sumo pro's aren't japanese, and there's now a full-fledged foreign geisha too. But yes, I think if there's a big boom in trad. culture abroad, it might inspire more people to take an interest. Oh! That reminds me, i read in the news about a manga artist who's just made a series all about kabuki and it's getting really popular with middle-school kids.

I remember when I was about 17-18 there used to be some white kids I knew who loved rap music and liked dressing up in hip hop clothes. The black people I knew mostly hated them for that, some of whom argued that it was in some way "stealing their culture" or something similar. I think some people might assume that Japanese people have the same sort of logic. But it's quite the opposite, if you make an effort it will be appreciated. But like anywhere if you act like a weirdo it won't be. What's the anime called by the way?

Originally Posted by Columbine

My friend chose higanbana; http://imaginatorium.org/sano/pics/b02206hgb.jpg . I don't know if you know about them but they have a strong association with death and picking them is considered unlucky. It's just really not done much. On her way to class she had a number of people stop her in the street to try and tell her about this, although of course, she was already aware, and several of the older ones got very shirty about it.

Interesting, I didn't know that, thanks...

[masaegu]

Originally Posted by MikeB

My Obachan students have tried to....

How unprofessional and tasteless of you to call your students (clients) that! It tells us a lot about how you see this country and her people.

Fail!

[MikeB]

Originally Posted by masaegu

How unprofessional and tasteless of you to call your students (clients) that! It tells us a lot about how you see this country and her people.

Fail!

Fail? In what context? Are you referring to my suggestion that wearing yukatas during firework and summer festivals is okay, or have I failed at something else? Life perhaps? I'm not sure why you've interupted a perfectly fine discussion. Please elaborate.

You seem very angry and I'm very unsure as to what seems to have made you so. Judging by your name I'll assume that your Japanese and should therefore know that the term `obachan' is not offensive when describing someone who you know well and have a close relationship with; it meerely suggests the age, it might not be the politest form, but it's hardly unnatural for Japanese person to talk in such a manner. I showed this to my Japanese girlfriend and her only reaction was to roll her eyes criticise me for spending any time whatsoever responding to points like the one that you just made. The reason I do, however, is that Japanese culture can sometimes be quite difficult so I think that clarifying this issue to a greater audience might be of some value.

In regards to professionality, well, if by being unprofessional you mean to infer that that having a close relationship with one's students is unprofessional, then yes, I am unprofessional. If you being unprofessional means helping students move house and offering to do all sorts of things for them then yes, I am unprofessional. If unprofessional means being invited to their house for dinner then I am indeed unprofessional. But with such a subjective word I'm at a loss to understand why you might have dished it out without being able to understand the context.

As for tasteless, well taste is indeed a subjective thing, personally I quite like classical music, but I'm aware that not all people do, that neither makes them nor I tasteless. I am however at a complete loss why you send this personal message to me:

Originally Posted by masaegu

Fuck off, you hater!

Nothing before, nothing after and no justification.

I would have respected your privacy and responded to you respecting the manner in which the message was delivered; if not the content. However, you seemed to have blocked me from responding to you directly and hence forced me to publish its contents here. If you can take the usage of one word and create some strange arugment alleging that I have to profound disrespect for Japan and its people, despite describing my admiration, then well that's the oldest trick in the book... Create a position where there is none. In which case my girlfriend is right, there really is no point discussing anything with you.

Sigh...