6.684 Billion People, 30 Amur Leopards...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

[PENIS="Big"]

• Well, I have actually stopped calling evolution fact. It is impossible to clarify exactly what has happened in perfect light. Yet I do say the concept is true. The theory is what explains the concept, yet is a variable truth, not a fact. A fact is a single element contained within a theory (or sometimes just standing alone).

• See, all I have in my head is a bunch of facts, and I theorise about what must have happened given what I know. What I have always tried to push you to do is pick up the same facts and then theorise as to what must have happened given what you know. You dont seem to, and this is the only reason I criticise you. It is not religion.

• I dont entirly believe you form an idea based on what you have discovered, yet more so you form a belief based on what you have not discovered.

• I am shedding light.

• How could someone possibly come to a creationist conclusion if they were theoriseing correctly? - That is; collecting facts and constructing a logical theory. The best you (actually, more so Ivion) has come up with is collecting improbabilites (abiogenesis cellular construction) and then trying to construct a theory... based on what, exactly, again? Improbability is not fact, therefor does not help form a logical theory. And I have yet to hear a single fact in a creationism theory, only in intelligent design.

• Muslim extremeists are attacking China. My wife asked "Why?" and I replied with "The Olympics are on...". And then I got to thinking; Muslim extremists are terrorists, Christian extremists are corrupt, Jewish extremists are just big idiots.

• Sorry I had to make the last point, I live in an English deprived society and miss talking to people...

If you're theorizing, then I'll agree with what you say... IF the data you're using really is accurate (which is also an issue for me), then of course, some of the ideas you're putting forward are pretty logical.

I theorize all the time... And don't take my critisicisms personally... I even question and critisize some things in the Qur'an until I FULLY understand it.

I form a belief from what I think is the truth. This goes for science, life, and religion. I wouldn't believe anything if I didn't think it was the truth. However, I will not have a belief if I think that there is something missing. The only exception to that is my religion. I cannot say that I know EVERYTHING about my religion, but from what I know, I believe in it. But when it comes to science, something that I can discover myself, I wouldn't believe it unless I thought that I had all the data/info required.

I think what you failed to understand from everything I've said to you, is that a lot of evolution has been made so that it's fact that backs up another fact. I don't believe that they have facts to back up a bigger fact. In theory, evolution sounds great. There are certain parts of evolution that I DO agree with, however, the OVERALL theory, I cannot accept it as fact. Same goes for things like the evolution of a horse... When you study the "actual" facts, you realise that most people theorized about certain details, and then were accepted as fact. An example of this, is when they find a tiny bone, and then they construct a whole skeleton out of it. The only fact I take from this is that there WAS a creature that had this bone, but I don't know what it looked like "exactly"... However, comparing it to modern day horses, I can get a slight idea... But I wouldn't consider this idea as FACT...

You once accused me of wishing that you will go to hell when you die... I think you'll find that I hate muslim extremists more than I could ever hate you. I do hope they rott in hell

Originally Posted by Tenchu

You see, Noodle, my (I sadly admit) best friend, do you understand what I am saying and why I have no credit for your "idea"/"belief thingy"? How can I? You can not present "what you don't know" as backing for your theory. Even if you do know a lot and are really smart, you can not use bewilderment (for lack of a better word) to form a theory. It is not logical.

I trust you get what I am saying.

Even if you forget I have a modest fossil record to view, have great knowledge of atmospheric/natural/continental/elemental/volcanic/galactic(?)/so on history which coincides with massive evolution leaps every time. Even if you forget I have record of that, at the very least I have a bunch of animals currently on this planet in which I know a fuck load about and frankly, yes, they all seem to be tracably related.

Relation, Noodle. The alternative answer that I can see for this is either:

• Aliens thought they'd come here and make it all look that way to fuck with our heads.

• Intelligent design; that being many things look alike because they all have a common designer. That is a theory in that it is fact everything looks related and the collection of this fact can create the assumption that "God" has a "life factory" somewhere, similar to what one might asume "Toyota" has got going in "Japan" given so many cars have that name written on them. These are, of course, both theories.

The only problem with intellectual design is it doesn't really explain anything, and neglects many facts being: atmospheric, natural, continental, elemental, volcanic, galactic(?), fossil, and so on, history.

I think you misunderstand me... I'm not here to present religion instead of evolution. Me disagreeing with evolution isn't me telling you, "look, evolution is wrong because my religion is right"... I wouldn't say or dream of saying anything like that. Religion is a belief... The only way I can make you believe is by advising you to read the Qur'an... Any other method, I wouldn't feel comfortable with, because that would mean I'm forcing my religion onto you, and this is not allowed anyway... So, if you're waiting for me to present some facts about why my religion is true, then I stand down... I fail...

I don't believe that you have any record of "evolution leaps", because the basis of evolution is that everything gradually and slowly evolves. It never says anything along the lines of how there would be no evolution if there were no climate changes... The closest I've read to what you've just said is that the process of evolution occurs more quickly... But even then, they've never come up with any "real" data or facts about it... It's just another theory to back up the over all theory...

There is no alternative... In science, you don't neccesarily have to give an alternative when proving something wrong. The only thing you can say is "we don't know yet"... And that's all I say about evolution... just because I can't think of another explanation, it doesn't give evolution any more credit...

However, it would be pretty cool if we were some sort of alien experiment...

Originally Posted by Tenchu

I believe if you include all the above subjects and facts within them when you next theorise about the origins of life you would be forced to concede an alternate possibility other than "Godota" factories everywhere. I mean, just paying it all off as coincidence that all this ties in like a woven basket may infact lead you to the truth, after all, we are both theorising. However, you are approaching this matter with a level of self ordained certainty (which I no longer am, mind you) which can only lead me to the verbal response of the English words "Arogant Bastard" (capitalized because it is intended to be spoken as a name. And yes, that includes Ivion) of which I express through creative writing over the internet...

• The stuff written in dark red is the ultimate punch line, please understand it well.

• Male emperor pengiuns survive a long assed antarctic winter with no food and water all by themselves just huddled together in a massive gathering trying to keep warm; that must truly suck...

So you see, Noodle, I dont want you to conform with my own theories which I sometimes incorectly mailed to you as facts. I just now want you to acknowledge your own ideas as the same thing. I also think you do not pay enough attention to other forms of natural history where as if you did you may arrive at a very different conclusion.

I'm starting to feel that the root of our problems is the internet... If we were face to face, I doubt we'd have as many issues... Including the name calling (I too call many of my friends names, without a real meaning... Just something you say... Like, don't be silly you w*n*er, David Beckham sucks..."...

• When I was younger, I wanted to go to the north pole for six months and live with penguins...

From now on, I'll take what you say as theory... Please do the same for me, unless I say it is fact... We'll probably get through a lot of discussions without the name calling... Oh and btw, about the stupidness and intellegence thing... Consider that if people agreed with you, you'd really be stupid because you'd believe you were always right, even when you weren't... Same goes for me, thus why I said before me questioning things or people questioning me is a way for me to improve my knowledge, and look at things different...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

I reply your dot points in listed accordance:

• This is the kind of love as between friends, right? Not as between husband and wife... ???

• Really? What if, like, I accidently run over a really small cute puppy dog on my push bike when I was little because there were puppies everywhere, and, like, my only excuse is "I am a clumbsy bastard" what you think will happen?

• But have you yet to concede that superiority really in reality affords you no exlusive rights? And; "With great power comes great responsibility" no?

• It's more a love/thirst for knowledge... But yes, it's more friendly love.

• If it was accidental, then it was intentionall... Hence, you'll be fine

• I never said we had exclusive rights, nor did I imply it... I do agree that we have a huge responsibility because WE ARE superior.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

• Well, I have actually stopped calling evolution fact. It is impossible to clarify exactly what has happened in perfect light. Yet I do say the concept is true. The theory is what explains the concept, yet is a variable truth, not a fact. A fact is a single element contained within a theory (or sometimes just standing alone).

• See, all I have in my head is a bunch of facts, and I theorise about what must have happened given what I know. What I have always tried to push you to do is pick up the same facts and then theorise as to what must have happened given what you know. You dont seem to, and this is the only reason I criticise you. It is not religion.

Well that is exactly right. It IS impossible to clarify what has happened.
However, the only thing I still regard as any sort of truth about Evolution is Natural Selection. But that is my own understanding of it based on my own facts.
We have to look at those facts and figure out if they are really facts or not and that is what i've done to the best of my ability. I know i'm never gonna able to theorise how we came about but my religion helps me in that matter simply because so many other facts are right in it.

You should see how they advertise Evolution, like it is absolute fact. Me and Noodle have been talking about some program called "The Genius of Darwin" which is on Channel 4 over here. You should see some of the bull they try to make the average viewer believe

To me Evolution is a theory which is popular because it fits the ideas of the people in power.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

• How could someone possibly come to a creationist conclusion if they were theoriseing correctly? - That is; collecting facts and constructing a logical theory. The best you (actually, more so Ivion) has come up with is collecting improbabilites (abiogenesis cellular construction) and then trying to construct a theory... based on what, exactly, again? Improbability is not fact, therefor does not help form a logical theory. And I have yet to hear a single fact in a creationism theory, only in intelligent design.

I haven't constructed a theory. Creationism is to do with belief and I haven't even begun to explain that on this forum.
As a famous scholar I admire points out, the Quran is a book of signs, not science. I and Muslims who care to bother with science, will look at those signs and see that they do make sense. They only exist to make our belief firmer, not to tell us what happened at the beginning of time and so on.
As for my Abiogenesis and Cellular Construction debate with you, I was gone for a week and when I came the thread was gone. So I was rather pissed off about that but not exactly surprised seeing the language that was being used in it

Originally Posted by Tenchu

• Muslim extremeists are attacking China. My wife asked "Why?" and I replied with "The Olympics are on...". And then I got to thinking; Muslim extremists are terrorists, Christian extremists are corrupt, Jewish extremists are just big idiots.

• Sorry I had to make the last point, I live in an English deprived society and miss talking to people...

Terrorists exist everywhere. Islamic ones have the bad rep because those are the ones that matter to the Western world.

As for the rest of your post, i'll write about it later when I get the time.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Yeah, you are right.

If you want to learn about cellular evolution then you should focus on the introduction of oxygen into the atmosphere by the stromatolites. They had the biggest impact and it is here where you are most likely to see a cell evolve to take advantage of a new kind of super fuel introduced into the atmosphere.

I've done some research on this and so far i've come across how these Plankton type cells didn't evolve but were simply replaced due to NS.
Saying that, I still need to research it lots more.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

It is unfortunate for you guys that extremist islamists have made it a fashion to blow up civilians. Islam has evolved in itself at a few stages in history, and what was once the most civil cultures (particularily under Saladin) has now started a very poor fashion in many parts of the world.

That's what i've been somewhat saying all along. There just isn't a single country now that implements Islam the way it should be.
Any power base that once was has be destabilised through greed and selfishness power hungry idiots.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Ivion, if not the whole lot, at least read the last paragraph in that last post to Noodle, I think it is funny.

Lol maybe. Taking that as a joke, its not a bad one

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Two questions I have been puzzled over, however, that I find trouble explaining;

• What is "I"? - That is; how can an "I" evolve? Like, "me", as an individual. A computer can be told to ask itself the same question, yet can never understand it deeply enough for it to be a serious question, I can understand it deeply and it deeply confuses me. I do not understand "I" (if that makes sense).

Well i'd say you Evolve as an individual when you've gained a higher conciousness through knowing your own weaknesses and strengths.
Like old people who are wise and so on.. but the sad fact is they die sooner or later. Imagine if you had that wisdom at a much earlier age.
I dunno, the whole area is an interesting thing to ponder on.

Originally Posted by Tenchu

• Where did eternity come from? All things come from something. Even if life is made by God; elemental things such as fire, earth, water, oxygen, steam, oil, so on, they all have traceable roots. Nothing just magically exists one day. Which raises the question; where did space/time/dimension/eternity come from? There is no answer for that. A vacant dimension is still something, as it has space, it must have a parent element or something. "Nothing" is hard for some people to understand, yet should be real. If there was truly nothing then there always would be truly nothing. Yet there is not. This is seriously incomprehensible. Eternity is not nothing, so where the fuck did it come from?

I've wondered that a lot and have come to one conclusion.
We as humans just weren't created to comprehend eternity all at once. I mean eternity keeps going and that is the whole definition of the word.
Maybe we can only achieve eternity through time and understanding of the entire universe. If humanity survives that long.. it'd surely be a time which would make us or break us. I mean what else is there to do when you've reached eternity/infinity/the end of everything lol.
As for where it came from, that can only be theorised when we get nearer to it and right now.. it's mind bogglingly far away.