"White anti-feminist men in Japan"

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Wasabista

Besides, as I said, I don't like the narrative. Where's the gratitude? After generations of protecting our women from harm, rushing into battle so our women can stay at home, hunting dangerous beasts so our families can eat protein, working in coal mines and construction sites, discovering medical procedures like modern obstetrics... and all the thanks we get is "women need men like a fish needs a bicycle"? A mendacious yarn about "thousands of years of oppression?" How about a thank you? How about "Thanks for your protection and support, we can take it from here"?

How pathetic

First of all that's not the feminist narrative. It's the narrative of some feminists (There's a difference).

Second of all that's like saying African Americans should show some gratitude to white people and their ancestors for bringing them and their ancestors to the United States.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Lol, like I said, there is more than one issue that Feminism has caused but it isn't entirely down to Feminism either. Can you only focus on one thing at a time or something?
Yea i'm sure most "dead" relationships are a reason for some people to leave that relationship. Then again it also gives them less of a reason to try. You have people left right and centre, doing what they want in their own selfish desire. Know what animal they're mimicing in that behaviour?
A Pig.
Problems also branch off other problems. There is adultery, sexual dependancy, teen pregnancies, more cases of badly brought up children, lack of a familial structure.. all linked to this problem of divorce rate.
If you don't see all this and how it is wrong, then you are the one who is ignorant here.
Also you don't need to remind me that MEN are also enjoying the benefits of following their base hedonistic agendas.
Noone said they weren't.



And i've already told you that feminists can't do squat in those countries. There are better organisations out there with more productive ideas who don't label themselves as "Feminists". Like I said in one of my first posts, there are VERY few countries where Feminism can do anything anymore.
Also, yes I do insist a Feminist is a whiney woman who cries about how a man left her. As sad as their stories might be, those are the feminists I see around me, not the ones who drop everything to help females in other countries.

Labelling yourself in fruitless causes, create more divisions amongst people.
Right now female empowerment is not even an issue and so Feminism is not needed in the majority of countries, especially Western ones.
If you're a Feminist Misa, why are you? Did you lose your right to vote? Did you get beat by a spouse? Did you get abused physically by males?

On a side note, most males who DO harass women, are most likely used to it since they receive the "ok" from other women. Therefore they carry that attitude onto other women, thinking it's a socially acceptable thing to do. I would say 70% of the time, they'd be right in thinking that.

I'm amazed that you're ignorant enough to tag all failed relationships as the fault of the individuals concerned not trying hard enough.

And according to you... feminism is responsible for a host of societies ills. Like what? May I suggest that you stop jumping to conclusions. Or do you think that a societal ill is one in which a father CANNOT execute his daughter for dating a man whom he does not approve as is practiced in many Muslim societies (known as honour killings).

Also people label themselves with concern to context. In a discussion concerning nationality I'm a New Zealander. In a discussion concerning gender I am a feminist. In a discussion concerning religion I'm an atheist. It's simple as that. I don't define myself with one label. It's ridiculous to give my position in relation to everything, evertime I took a stance or introduced myself to someone.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

I'm amazed that you're ignorant enough to tag all failed relationships as the fault of the individuals concerned not trying hard enough.

I'm amazed that you're ignorant enough to not know when I am using a simplified example and have an issue with me on a totally irrelevant point.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

And according to you... feminism is responsible for a host of societies ills. Like what? May I suggest that you stop jumping to conclusions. Or do you think that a societal ill is one in which a father CANNOT execute his daughter for dating a man whom he does not approve as is practiced in many Muslim societies (known as honour killings).

Lol you tell me not to jump to conclusions but you do the same?
What Muslim societies have you seen this done in exactly?
Oh i'm sure there will be instances out there but it is not an epidemic like you make it sound.
Just the same as a father killing his family and shooting himself dead in any Western country.
Also, didn't I say that Feminism was "partially" responsible? There are other reasons society is the way it is and I said Feminism is definitely responsible for it alongside those reasons.

Originally Posted by MissMisa

There are many other reasons the divorce rate has increased. Many of which are not the fault of feminism. Neither is the result of divorce. There are disadvantages and advantages of divorce. It's not always a bad thing, sometimes, it's for the greater good. I think for most people, divorce is a last resort. They've tried. It's not happening. Without divorce, both parties would be trapped in such a relationship. Now, they don't have to be. If you think that choice is negative, then that's up to you. It's a subjective thing to look at and it depends on what you believe in. I'm not going to tell you what to believe.

Didn't I already say there are many other factors why divorce has increased, at least twice?
Divorce isn't "always" a bad thing, which is why it exists. However it has been a problem and there are many issues resulting from the increase. I didn't say ALL divorce is bad so don't put words into my mouth.

Originally Posted by MissMisa

You can be two things at once, you know. Feminism is not a charity, a business, or anything physical. It's not like Oxfam or the Red Cross. It's just another word for a set of ideals that people can choose to believe in. If you believe in those ideas, then you can say you are a feminist if you want to. There will be feminists helping in those charities, doing things for other countries. And there will be women sat on their arse moaning about it. With one, comes the other. To say all women's rights ideals are useless, is not something I agree with.

What? Who said all women's rights ideals are useless? I can't remember saying that anywhere. Hmm.
No I said that the ideals of "women" have been reached, as far as basic rights go. I also said plenty of times that since those ideals had been met, especially in the West, that there was no more need of a Feminist movement.
What comes now is a human rights neccessity, where women who are in individual sticky situations need their issues resolved. People know that treating women like second class citizens is not right and therefore Feminism is not needed.

Originally Posted by MissMisa

And great, you've judged thousands of people by the 'the feminists I see around me.'

I am a feminist, in a way, amongst other things. When I say I am a feminist, it's the same as I believe in the rights to jobs and opportunities of women. That doesn't mean I hate men, or blame men. I don't. What has happened in my life is none of your business, frankly, and I don't have to explain those reasons to you.

Noone forced you to explain your reasons to me? I wasn't asking cos I wanted to know about your life story but why you thought Feminism was so important to you.
Yes I judged "Feminists" from what I see around me because thats what I see, through the media and through real life. I haven't met a single "Feminist" who doesn't piss and moan about her life instead of trying to fix it. They call themselves "Feminists" because misery likes company and they feel they belong somewhere. That's fine by me but don't tell me that they are around to benefit humanity in some way.
Go ahead, try and ask me whether it would be ok if other people judged terrorists the same way. I'll ask you how many terrorists you know? What issues do you know about these "terrorists" if you do know them. Why is it not the same to prejudge a terrorist? Because they have issues which still exist today.

To summarise, there should be no more Feminist movement. The majority of people know that treating women like second class citizens is bad. They have been educated and now most societies revolve around that clause.
Feminism is not some "way of life". It "was" a movement. Anyone who calls themselves a Feminist now doesn't need to. Any cases of women being repressed can be helped without needing any sort of Feminist movement.
Feminists see a problem where there is none. If there is any problem, a group of women who are being effected by it can resolve the issue by themselves through the justice system, without taking to the streets and burning their bras. If any woman is singularly effected by a problem, she can seek help through one of the many humanitarian charities that might specialise in her dilemma.
At the end of the day if you still want to call yourself a Feminist or try and justify someone else doing so, that's your prerogative. I can just go ahead and call myself a Black Panther for all the good it'll do me.

[Paul11]

One reason for the LBH (loder back home) thing may be because, when you live in a foreign country, speak the language, and attempt to follow thier customs, one must slow down. If you slow down to speak a second language and think about your manners, you may be more polite ans socially successful. Back home, at full speed, people tend to not think about what they are doing and saying so much, which means you put your foot in your mouth and are socially ackward, i.e. LBH.

I'm not saying this is an absolute, just a possibility and something I've experienced. Therefore, others probably experienced it, too. My wife asks me why I'm nicer in Japan and not as social here. Part of it maybe my career has changed me. But in my home country, my brain and mouth move so fast that I sometimes don't think about what I'm saying. People may be offended.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

I'm amazed that you're ignorant enough to not know when I am using a simplified example and have an issue with me on a totally irrelevant point.



Lol you tell me not to jump to conclusions but you do the same?
What Muslim societies have you seen this done in exactly?
Oh i'm sure there will be instances out there but it is not an epidemic like you make it sound.
Just the same as a father killing his family and shooting himself dead in any Western country.
Also, didn't I say that Feminism was "partially" responsible? There are other reasons society is the way it is and I said Feminism is definitely responsible for it alongside those reasons.

Yeah... simplified examples aren't examples when all they do is showcase your ignorance.

And I completely agree and am not against Islam, well not culturally anyway... I'm aware that honour killings are only allowed in backward Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia etc. And even then they are not as common as some would make them out to be.

Now that we have that understanding (that being that I don't despise Islam on a cultural level), let me try and spell it out for you.

Feminism seems (or is it just you guys, I've lived in England and America and never encountered any widespread hostility towards the feminist movement, or perhaps I just chose my company well.) to have a bad reputation in your societies amongst the ignorant who know nothing about it (such as yourself) based on the actions or opinions of those who do so in the name of feminism whom you don't agree with (to put it politely, since we aren't really discussing a specific topic I'm not willing to brand ALL those that act against mainstream norms extremists considering that at one stage in history, the mere notion that a woman could be considered equal to a man would be deemed extremist).

Now notice how in the above paragraph you can replace the word feminism with the word islam and it would be an accurate statement on which we could BOTH agree.

I know you're a Muslim and was simply trying to relate to you as I assume that you may understand where I was coming from.

[Ronin4hire]

I know these weren't directed at me but I have a few things to say concerning some of the things you've said.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

Didn't I already say there are many other factors why divorce has increased, at least twice?
Divorce isn't "always" a bad thing, which is why it exists. However it has been a problem and there are many issues resulting from the increase. I didn't say ALL divorce is bad so don't put words into my mouth.

So why'd you bring it up in the first place?

You might as well be saying that since feminism is a factor which leads to increased divorce which causes stress and it is hypothesised that stress can lead to cancer... wait... I just realised something.... FEMINISM CAUSES CANCER!!! Aaaaaah

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

What? Who said all women's rights ideals are useless? I can't remember saying that anywhere. Hmm.
No I said that the ideals of "women" have been reached, as far as basic rights go. I also said plenty of times that since those ideals had been met, especially in the West, that there was no more need of a Feminist movement.
What comes now is a human rights neccessity, where women who are in individual sticky situations need their issues resolved. People know that treating women like second class citizens is not right and therefore Feminism is not needed.

Who decides when the ideas of women have been reached? You? What an arrogant prick. The day there is no need for a feminist movement is the day there is no distinct gender difference within society or that difference becomes trivial and largely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

To summarise, there should be no more Feminist movement. The majority of people know that treating women like second class citizens is bad. They have been educated and now most societies revolve around that clause.
Feminism is not some "way of life". It "was" a movement. Anyone who calls themselves a Feminist now doesn't need to. Any cases of women being repressed can be helped without needing any sort of Feminist movement.
Feminists see a problem where there is none. If there is any problem, a group of women who are being effected by it can resolve the issue by themselves through the justice system, without taking to the streets and burning their bras. If any woman is singularly effected by a problem, she can seek help through one of the many humanitarian charities that might specialise in her dilemma.
At the end of the day if you still want to call yourself a Feminist or try and justify someone else doing so, that's your prerogative. I can just go ahead and call myself a Black Panther for all the good it'll do me.

Laws may have changed... but what about attitudes and opinions WITHIN society? That is the new battleground for feminists. Feminist concerns range from the sexual objectification of women in the mainstream media to the limiting gender roles that women are to some extent held back by. (And if you don't think the latter applies then clearly you weren't watching American news outlets during the Democratic primaries in the US when Hillary was up against Obama. I was actually for Obama but I completely agree that Hillary got a worse deal from the media concerning gender than Obama did concerning race).

And the Black Panthers are an organisation. Feminism isn't. I thought you understood that already?

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Paul11

One reason for the LBH (loder back home) thing may be because, when you live in a foreign country, speak the language, and attempt to follow thier customs, one must slow down. If you slow down to speak a second language and think about your manners, you may be more polite ans socially successful. Back home, at full speed, people tend to not think about what they are doing and saying so much, which means you put your foot in your mouth and are socially ackward, i.e. LBH.

I'm not saying this is an absolute, just a possibility and something I've experienced. Therefore, others probably experienced it, too. My wife asks me why I'm nicer in Japan and not as social here. Part of it maybe my career has changed me. But in my home country, my brain and mouth move so fast that I sometimes don't think about what I'm saying. People may be offended.

I agree with that...

I'll add that the term LBH is a subjective one and could easily say more about the person who uses the term rather than the person who it is being directed at.

If I consider someone a nice guy at home who is unlucky or uninterested concerning the ladies at home but who finds someone special in Japan (or somewhere else) then him being a nice guy means that he isn't a loser and not an LBH.

If some materialistic, status seeking, self-important person calls said nice guy an LBH because of whatever assumptions he or she jumps to then in my opinion they become the loser (or perhaps that's what Taln earlier termed an OTBH (Only tolerated back home) comes into play)

[Wasabista]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Divorce rates are up for a number of reasons.

Yes. Probably the biggest reason is that people are living longer and have more control over their lives.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Yeah... simplified examples aren't examples when all they do is showcase your ignorance.

Its an example because I was pointing out something. You think it's not an example just because you say so?
Seriously, I don't have the time to explain something so idiotic to you.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Feminism seems (or is it just you guys, I've lived in England and America and never encountered any widespread hostility towards the feminist movement, or perhaps I just chose my company well.) to have a bad reputation in your societies amongst the ignorant who know nothing about it (such as yourself) based on the actions or opinions of those who do so in the name of feminism whom you don't agree with (to put it politely, since we aren't really discussing a specific topic I'm not willing to brand ALL those that act against mainstream norms extremists considering that at one stage in history, the mere notion that a woman could be considered equal to a man would be deemed extremist).

Wow, you talk so much shit. It boggles my mind how you can keep spewing it and not make yourself sick.
Noone said that there was widespread hostility toward the Feminist movement. It is my opinion on it and I am in noway ignorant about this as you like to assume. You will also find that in England, people do not openly discuss what different movements and agendas piss them off. Noone will come up to you and suddenly tell you that "Hey I hate Feminism" or whatever.
People just either dont care or they keep their opinions to themselves until asked.
To think your company was somehow more enlightened, actually made me laugh too.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Now notice how in the above paragraph you can replace the word feminism with the word islam and it would be an accurate statement on which we could BOTH agree.

Yes and what's that going to achieve exactly? It is true that ignorance is what leads people to have a negative view of anything.
I never claimed to be ignorant about Feminism. You just assume to think so because I disagree with something you choose to adopt.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

So why'd you bring it up in the first place?

What? I brought it up because the amount of divorces occuring IS a problem? Wtf are you talking about.

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Who decides when the ideas of women have been reached? You? What an arrogant prick. The day there is no need for a feminist movement is the day there is no distinct gender difference within society or that difference becomes trivial and largely irrelevant.

Rofl, and who decided that Women needed you to help them in this day and age? I can just imagine you in a pink frock and a feather duster, off to save the Women who are so oppressed!

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Laws may have changed... but what about attitudes and opinions WITHIN society? That is the new battleground for feminists. Feminist concerns range from the sexual objectification of women in the mainstream media to the limiting gender roles that women are to some extent held back by. (And if you don't think the latter applies then clearly you weren't watching American news outlets during the Democratic primaries in the US when Hillary was up against Obama. I was actually for Obama but I completely agree that Hillary got a worse deal from the media concerning gender than Obama did concerning race).

I couldn't care much for Hillary but yes, that is definitely an issue and I didn't say it wasn't. Also women who are objectified think they are actually following some kind of dream because their short term desires are fulfilled.
It is women themselves who need to be educated this time, more than anyone else. Once you educate them to stop feeding the objectification, the forms of it will diminish. Why do you need a Feminist to do that? This will just turn all those women into Feminists as well, in turn creating a movement that is not needed. It causes more divisions amongst people physically and mentally, when all that is needed is your lay person to know what is right and wrong.

Answer me this.

I care about such things and have done what I can to stop such shit by simply educating people. However I don't call myself a Feminist.
In this regard, what's the difference between me and you?

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

And the Black Panthers are an organisation. Feminism isn't. I thought you understood that already?

Yes the Black Panthers were an organisation of the "Black Nationalism" movement. If I just called myself "Black Nationalist" it would be stupid, so I used the next best thing which was more tangible.