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09-08-2009, 08:16 AM
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The way it works, is very very very simple... You get someone that wants to be in power. He starts off by creating a version of the Qur'an, that he wants. And I'm not talking about translated versions either, pure arabic versions. I read one of these once. The first page, a verse which said in the proper Qur'an that you should defend yourself against Christians and Jews should they attack you, your faith, your family or those around you was turned into "You should Kill ALL Jews and Christians, they are infidels"! That's the first step. Then you get them while they're young. Brainwash them while they're young and get them to do whatever you want by misquoting verses or just quoting changed verses. This is very simple to do, and it even happens in better off countries like France and Algeria. I avoid most of my muslims friends because they never thought to themselves, they were force fed the religion. They even go as far as to say failing their exam was "the will of Allah". Everything is the will of Allah to them, as if we have no control over what we do! That's all it is! Get someone in power, he gets his own version of the qur'an written, and brainwashes people. Then all the small things in between. Poverty used as an excuse "We are suffering because we haven't been good muslims. We haven't defeneded our land from the Americans or Jews, so go forth my children and kill, save this land for the next generation! GO!!!!" So, in all honesty, people that have read the Qur'an out of their own will, and really wanted to understand without being forced into it will have misinterpretations about the scientific stuff in it, the social stuff, or even the afterlife stuff! No one ever argues about whether it's okay to kill or hurt someone. In the most simplest terms, the Qur'an's main message is to always further your studies and try to be the best at whatever you persue, and to always treat humans and all of god's creations with the utmost respect! If you do these things, you are already a pretty good muslim. |
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09-08-2009, 08:41 AM
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Of course I as a secular humanist would prefer that your interpretation be the one adopted by the many Muslims throughout the world... But at the end of the day your interpretation is just that... another interpretation. You can continue to fight to convince us that yours is the REAL interpretation and that the others are false... but to people like me... this simply highlights the absurdness of the Islamic religion as a whole and poses the question... -Why is God not explicit in his message to us mere mortals? I mean for an all powerful being... he should've foreseen the problems that have arisen since due to misinterpretation as you put it. Furthermore even if for some reason he did screw it up (which kind of contradicts the all-powerful part of his description...) why did he not release an updated version? (Or perhaps that is what the book of Mormon is hahaha!) |
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09-08-2009, 11:26 AM
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The secular answer to your question, Ronin, would be "God is testing us"; if he tells people about himself and heaven in a manner that will leave no doubt and no denying the proof, all people will be good people just to get into heaven. But, as we know from observing your behaviour over the years, all people are not good people. So, in leaving doubt about his existence, he can provide a little social guidence in the background, yet still enough freedom in daily affairs to allow us to show our true character, and thus on judgement day he can weed out the impure or false hearted with ease. Of course, this also has another implication; Muhammad was a dick. You see, Muhammad thought he was undenyable, and all would and must convert under his undisputable truth, and those who don't after hearing his word deserve to burn in hell for eternity. So, if Muhammad is right, then yes, he's also a dick. As his words are not undisputable and convincing and so he should not blame us. And, if he is wrong, he would also be a dick in this case, too, because he clearly does not see that God did not give him enough help to prove everything to everyone because God wanted to test us. Either way, things are looking pretty darn bad for Muhammad. Anyway... carry on... The eternal Saint is calling, through the ages she has told. The ages have not listened; the will of faith has grown old…
For forever she will wander, for forever she withholds; the Demon King is on his way, you’d best not be learned untold… |
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09-08-2009, 11:37 AM
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This just to tell you science has no proof that something needs a creator.  Quote:
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09-08-2009, 11:51 AM
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The eternal Saint is calling, through the ages she has told. The ages have not listened; the will of faith has grown old…
For forever she will wander, for forever she withholds; the Demon King is on his way, you’d best not be learned untold… |
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09-08-2009, 12:25 PM
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Therefore to me it's anything but logical. |
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09-08-2009, 12:37 PM
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Also like Ronin says it goes in an endless chain. Some religious people say God doesn't need a creator. Well, why do us need one? Quote:
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09-08-2009, 01:24 PM
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for example......I sure that is no one knows where will we go after we die... we have a lot of questions that we don't know the answer because of our limited brain... and for that ....we can conclude that is there is a God ...but we can't know his face ?or do God have hands ?or where God live?or why God create us and why God create the world? and else.... -ok....we know now there is God...but God send masseges to people to worship him...so we must to worship him .... |
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09-08-2009, 01:45 PM
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See, when you say "dirt", it ain't really dirt, it's like, coal from a fire, or shit from a horse. So where did that fire that made the ash come from? It came from gas. Were did the gas come from? It came from dead animals. You know, everything comes from somewhere. So, you keep going back and back and back, until oneday you get to a point where you're just before the big bang, and there's no fucking dimension for shit to exist in. How can anything be a product of something before that when there was no place for it to exist in? You know, you get to a point where there's no space and time. So answer me how you pull dirt out of that? As for the creator comment, it's just plain fucking arrogance. Some things are better and more advanced than you and Ronin are. Yes, dirt isn't, so it's pretty easy for you to understand the way this dimension works. But when you go and say that a creator needs a creator, you're suggesting you're the final stage of evolution. You're it, the all understanding being. I don't have to answer that question; it's about as stupid as someone asking me to count the grains of sand on the sunshine coast, and calling me lazy for not doing it. The point is, there's no reason to assume something a bazzilion times greater than you are which resides in a moment of existence absent from both space and time needs a creator. I mean, that alone; God could not exist in a dimension, because he created dimensions, it makes you look pretty stupid. How the fuck is someone supposed to exist before you in order to create you if there is no time, no before? Why don't you think it through for a bit. It seems to me you need a lot of thinking. Of course, what I say is not conclusive; I'm just point out your arrogance. The eternal Saint is calling, through the ages she has told. The ages have not listened; the will of faith has grown old…
For forever she will wander, for forever she withholds; the Demon King is on his way, you’d best not be learned untold… |
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09-08-2009, 01:47 PM
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The eternal Saint is calling, through the ages she has told. The ages have not listened; the will of faith has grown old…
For forever she will wander, for forever she withholds; the Demon King is on his way, you’d best not be learned untold… |
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