Austin, Texas suicide pilot

[IamKira]

excuse me... it is racist to point out that there is a problem with africa and that it's inhabitants have half the life expectancy of those living in industrialized worlds yet we do nothing to help

and yes, you got me... i have been musing to myself the last few pages trying to figure out if i support joe and by how much... i wanted feedback from people who think i'm serious in order to get a grasp on how people think and why.. and so i needed people to think i was serious....
the problem is i am still split... i see his reasoning in committing the acts to be true and i understand and agree with his ramblings.. but i don't know if i can support the deaths of those people....
this will take some thinking on.. but right now i need to go to bed.. thanks for responding .. night all

[MMM]

Originally Posted by IamKira

excuse me... it is racist to point out that there is a problem with africa and that it's inhabitants have half the life expectancy of those living in industrialized worlds yet we do nothing to help

No. It is racist to say his life is less valuable because he was raised in Africa.

[IamKira]

when did i say that??... wait, was he raised in africa? i'm confused... i said if he had lived in africa he'd be dead already and for some time... it was a statement of fact that he's far exceeded the life that some get to live... i am sorry if this has caused any inclaination of racism to be interpreted.. rest assured i mean nothing of the sort.

[Tsuwabuki]

I skimmed most of the thread, because it got pretty frakkin ridiculous.

This is what I know: Stack flew an airplane into a building located in my and his hometown. He killed fellow Austinites.

Whatever his grievance, this was unacceptable. What makes us better than terrorists is that we don't resort to acts of terror in the name of political action.

I advocate self-defense, and in a given situation, I would even advocate civil disobedience. A rare set of circumstances would have to exist to justify armed revolution. This is not one of them. Congress has the right, enshrined in the Constitution, to levy and collect taxes. Despite the Tea Party insanity, there is no unconsitutionality about the IRS.

Stack was a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. His actions were not against a tyrannical refusal to grant rights and liberties (as the English did when they refused parliamentary representation to the American colonists).

learn2civics

[xyzone]

Fine, let's call Joe Stack a terrorist. Labels don't really matter, anyway.

Originally Posted by clintjm

"Complaints and dispute through the proper channels like everyone else and through free speech is the only way" <add> that you can redeem your liberty and stop the Tyranny of government. Just keep voting them out of office. If they break a law, then hold them to it. If the law isn't clear enough, amend it; get it changed; add some proper regulation if need be.

You are naive. You should read the terrorist's letter. He touches on all of this.

- The "proper channels" are corrupt and biased in favor of the oppressors

- "Voting them out of office" just means you pick one of two puppets in one system controlled by the same biased dynamic. Some lowly goofs can vote all they want for a 3rd party; they'll keep losing for their whole lifetime to the two party system, where at least one is controlled directly by the rich interests and the other just as well indirectly. You're voting for the same scam in a different package.

- The laws themselves are being controlled by the people you'd try to "hold them to it". Money talks and bullshit walks.

Sure some get away with it... but they gamble on getting caught and some get caught and do hard time.

Caught with what? Don't you understand they don't get "caught" with anything by and large because they obfuscate legality and influence the system in favor of their interests. This is the whole point.

There will be never-ending debate on how the government handled (and continues to handle) the economic crisis.

And most of it is just a brown load of glossy corporate fluff. Anybody that relies on TV "news" just to form an opinion is nothing more than a serf playing along -- and that is most of America --

for instance, any talking point of liberal/conservative republican/democrat that you could probably come up with:

However the mortgage bubble and credit fiasco has plenty of blame to go around to the consumer living beyond their means. Throw in some tyranny and here is what you got.

the evil nnnnnnnutjob:
"
"The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
"The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed."
"

I'm not buying it. He was a nutjob because he had a suicidal rage, but it's just very comfortable to dismiss it all as a nutjob's ramblings because of two lines. We're talking about a man who killed himself in a rage and those closing lines seem like a middle finger to what he thought were the villains. I'm sure everyone is aware of how brainwashed conservative-impersonators feel about iconic dogma words such as "communism" and I'm sure Stack did as well.

I find it ironic that the guy burned down his rather expensive house, and owned a plane to fly into the building.

It seems the IRS demanded his life savings and were going to take his house as well.

[xyzone]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Can`t you agree with someone`s opinions on something, but not the actions they took?

I know I can, and that's exactly my point of view on this.

Do you really think anyone will take him and his manifest seriously now?

Yes, many are, if at least as an opportunity to call attention to the established Cronyism masquerading as capitalism in this country.

No matter how great or right a cause is, if you do something incredibly horrific in an attempt to draw attention to it - nothing good is going to happen.

We'll see. Besides, at best something that good would happen anyway if people just sit on their hands.

[IamKira]

i love that he burned all his possessions so that the system couldn't reclaim them.. that is like the icing on the cake
R.I.P. joe stack

well, you say there is no unconstitutionality in the IRS, but as seen through stacks ordeal, there is no appeal with the IRS.. how is that justifiable?
and have you ever been to your local irs office?.... my dad and i spent 3 hours one day sitting in line..( we were 3rd in line) just to pay them a couple thousand dollars... all the while, one of the fricken agents is going over pretty much the entire tax system for businesses to some dude who looked like he had no idea what the guy was on about... and the douchebag irs agent is talking so loud that everyone in the lobby can hear all about the guys financial cituation .. something that i feel should be kept private..
the irs is evil

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by xyzone

Fine, let's call Joe Stack a terrorist. Labels don't really matter, anyway.

The current adminstration sure thinks they are important. I wonder if they will actually use the term terrorists.

Originally Posted by xyzone

You are naive. You should read the terrorist's letter. He touches on all of this.

- The "proper channels" are corrupt and biased in favor of the oppressors

I don't study nut-job manifestos in full in my spare time. His actions alone show him a sixpack short of a beer. Nothing justifies what he did. That doesn't make me naive.

Originally Posted by xyzone

- "Voting them out of office" just means you pick one of two puppets in one system controlled by the same biased dynamic. Some lowly goofs can vote all they want for a 3rd party; they'll keep losing for their whole lifetime to the two party system, where at least one is controlled directly by the rich interests and the other just as well indirectly. You're voting for the same scam in a different package.

Sure this can happen if you get just the right combination of extreme right or left elected administration. But in the end the fail safes of the constitution kick in. Eventually the court system as needed.
Your saying the American system of democracy is broken, I beg to differ.

Originally Posted by xyzone

- The laws themselves are being controlled by the people you'd try to "hold them to it". Money talks and bullshit walks.
Caught with what? Don't you understand they don't get "caught" with anything by and large because they obfuscate legality and influence the system in favor of their interests. This is the whole point.

It depends on who and what law is being violated.
Those CEOs that steal and rob through breaking the law go to jail.
Those Government officials you take advantage of their position face the people who voted for and the people that he or she represents.

Originally Posted by xyzone

And most of it is just a brown load of glossy corporate fluff. Anybody that relies on TV "news" just to form an opinion is nothing more than a serf playing along -- and that is most of America --

If you don't use the press, how do you get your news? ESP? You need facts to form opinions. Not manifestos that have an opinion on opinons.

Originally Posted by xyzone

for instance, any talking point of liberal/conservative republican/democrat that you could probably come up with:

I'm not buying it. He was a nutjob because he had a suicidal rage, but it's just very comfortable to dismiss it all as a nutjob's ramblings because of two lines. We're talking about a man who killed himself in a rage and those closing lines seem like a middle finger to what he thought were the villains. I'm sure everyone is aware of how brainwashed conservative-impersonators feel about iconic dogma words such as "communism" and I'm sure Stack did as well.
It seems the IRS demanded his life savings and were going to take his house as well.

The final two lines were what sealed the deal. He was fighting to keep obtained wealth that was owed to the nation, while praising the logic of communism where nothing is truley yours.
The fact is, he didn't feel he was obligated to pay the taxes on the wealth he earned.
He didn't feel he was obligated to obey the law. The correct way is to gather enough representation to have tax laws changed. The incorrect way is to ram planes into buildings, destroying property that will surely more time and money and headaches, killing people and destroying families. That is what terrorists do. That, is a evil, greedy, nutjob. There is a special place in hell for such people.

[IamKira]

your last statement is what sealed the deal on my outlook of you...
why does he owe me? or you? or our "great nation" (sarcasm, i hate this stupid country) maybe if our tax dollars went towards usefull stuff (aid for example) i might be more inclined to willingly pay taxes, but no.. that money is used for fruitless war efforts and ends up in the hands of already rich people who will use that money to in crease the gap between themselves and their underlings.. our system is dead... the only option is revolt.. and a bloody one at that.

[MMM]

"Violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer."
-Joseph Stack

Like Clint, I don't need to read any further.

Insane words and actions mar any manifesto as he ramblings of a madman.

Sure, you can probably pick out sentences you agree with, but that doesn't legitimize anything, especially what he did.

His wife and child were staying at a hotel when this happened? Why? Because they were afraid of him.

And the man he murdered in his act of suicide was an American veteran of the Viet Nam War.

If the Tea Party or other political groups want to adopt Stack as a hero, that is their right, but it just reduces any respect I might have had for them.