New Law in the U.S. State: Arizona

[MMM]

Originally Posted by jesselt

Don't be silly MMM. We can't punish business. How unCapitalistic!

I know, Jesse, but it is what makes a law like this so glaringly inefficient and forces government paid law enforcers to racially profile the citizens of a state.

When you see thousands of ants devouring a lollipop which is easier: remove the ants or remove the lollipop? What are the results of each option?

[Sinestra]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Yes other than driving you are not required to carry ID. If asked to produce one and you refuse thats another matter. Obstructing a police officers duties is never warranted that includes withholding your ID. If you are doing nothing wrong then you have nothing to fear.

Yes i agree which is why i sympathize with both parties. We have police who abuse power under normal circumstances. This will be no different there will be that one officer who has a chip on his shoulder or is biased against Latino's and he will stop and question more latinos than he will anyone else. Like i said given the location and demographic it cant be help. Yes its a double standard and it cant be helped but it does not make it right.

They can use the ER but this is the same right as we would give to any other person who happen to be in the country not just Latino's. If a person is hit by a car and they happen to be German the result will be the same someone still has to pay for it and because of the sheer amount of Latinos in the country yes it does add up. If they have a fake Social Security Number and card and are employed by a company and are not being paid under the table they are paying income taxes.

.

It does iv read several articles and statical data on it. I failed to say in my original post that this only pertains to those illegals who are not paid under the table. If you are working for a US company and are receiving a paycheck you are required to pay taxes. These people are still illegal but have a fake SSN and SS card. Taxes are taking out of their check ever cycle just like citizens. The differences is the illegals do not write anything off nor do they claim anything hence they pay more income taxes. They also do receive a return and not eligible for any tax breaks. The reason being is if they deduct too much the government will focus on that individual harder and increase the chances they will be caught with a fake SSN. If you are over paying your taxes the government wont look twice at you try not paying what you owe thats a different story. However, that in itself is still a problem because it still takes away jobs from Americans because they work for cheaper pay. Im sorry i dont have the sources at the moment as i am at work but i will post them once i get home.

I am not excusing their behavior they are still here illegally and if caught should be deported. But there are many misconceptions about illegals that only add fuel to the fire. I also dont agree with the amnesty that we give to some because they dont have the skills to be productive in our workforce and even if your child was born here i believe at least 1 of your parents needs to be a US citizen for the child to be counted as one because there are too many cases where parents are deported but the child is left behind breaking up the family. What good does it do to deport the family but leave the children. Sometimes they are put into the lottery for a green car or given amnesty.

Im not saying they are doing it for attention, i believe in democracy if 80% of people are for this bill in their state then majority rules. I might not agree with it but if its made law then its the law and all should abide by it. There is no way to identify the illegals without asking for ID of course. However, on the flip side i bet a Canadian wont have the same problem a Latino will even if said Canadian is illegal its that pesky double standard again. My concern is for Latino US citizens who may be harassed over this law because they are Latino and happen to live in Arizona.

I wish i had an answer there is no quick fix and the federal government has done nothing to solve the problem. I do believe that people should be able to immigrate here through legal means. I do not believe anyone has the right to be here illegally. But what im worried about the most right now is what will the backlash be from this bill. I have not read the bill yet so im not sure of all that it entails. I know here MD when a cop stops or pulls anyone over they are required to document every encounter including race. In the end Arizona is doing what they feel is best for their state and i cant fault them for that.

[TalnSG]

This move is really making headlines in Texas and spawning ideas.

I tend to agree with Sinestra's concerns and MMM's enforcement ideas.

But at least AZ went about this with more rationality that the idiotic "wall" that a certain lame-brained ex-pres came up with, or the apparently out-of -juridiction attempt made in Farmers Branch, TX.

Personally I am more than miffed about having to produce a stupid Social Security card that was printed for me FOURTY years ago. What moron thinks a flimsy piece of paper should be carried at all times for 4 DECADES?!? I have a perfectly valid passport and a legal Driver license from the same governmental issuing agency for 38 years, but that is not good enough for some "authorities".

And it isn't just non-whites being stopped. I was pulled over in SW Texas by a federal officer. My husnand and I were interrogated at length along the roadside because this guy had a quota to check and then didn't recognize the two towns we were born in - they were words from Algonquin and Caddo tribes. I can just imagine how that is NOT going to work any better in AZ.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by Sinestra

Canadian wont have the same problem a Latino will even if said Canadian is illegal its that pesky double standard again. My concern is for Latino US citizens who may be harassed over this law because they are Latino and happen to live in Arizona.

Probably the illegal Canadians won't; but illegals Canadians in Arizona isn't the problem.

There is no pretty end to this illegal problem, but the fact that peoples feelings are going to be hurt for having to provide / show Green Cards isn't a new law; it is a federal law.

Originally Posted by Sinestra

I wish i had an answer there is no quick fix and the federal government has done nothing to solve the problem. I do believe that people should be able to immigrate here through legal means. I do not believe anyone has the right to be here illegally. But what im worried about the most right now is what will the backlash be from this bill. I have not read the bill yet so im not sure of all that it entails. I know here MD when a cop stops or pulls anyone over they are required to document every encounter including race. In the end Arizona is doing what they feel is best for their state and i cant fault them for that.

I agree also there isn't a quick fix. But failure to do nothing which the FED has continued to along with failure to enforce current law.


To All:

To those who want to read the bill:

LINK: Documents For Bill
LINK: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

I see nothing in there about racial profiling.

This problem isn't going to be solved by waiting for the federal government.

In the end if Arizona and like states aren't even able to start here and ask for proof of identification the problem(s) will never be solved.

Much of the free world has this in place pretty much already.

[MMM]

Is there any question that by making law enforcement officers force citizens to prove their citizenship that non-whites are going to be targeted more than whites?

Again, this is government sponsored harassment of people at the expense of the rights of legal citizens.

Do we really support the discrimination and loss of more rights by legal citizens?

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

It is state-government funded harassment.

How is this harassment?

Originally Posted by MMM

If state governments want to reduce the number of illegal immigrants coming into their state there is a simple solution: punish the employers that hire them.

Hire illegals, and pay a fine. Do it again, and be shut down for a week, do it again and lose your business licence.

Instead chasing around those generally doing little more than try to make a better life for themselves and their families, why not take the much easier route to shut down those who hire them.

Instead of the police asking for papers in a police state, it should be the employers.

I wonder why this hasn't worked?
I think you should submit this to Arizona state legislator.

It isn't working. Too many loop holes for those who want to hire illegals, and bad for businesses who hire them by being duped by fake documentation or SSNs.

The illegals are going to keep coming work available or not because the lifestyle here is still a step up from where they are coming from.

The U.S. has to attack this from both sides. Just going after businesses is not going to help.

Arizona is now just enforcing the federal laws the federal officials are not able or are unwilling to enforce.

If Washington D.C. was on the border, this would be a non-issue to the federal government.

How is the government able to enforce "illegal to enter the country without proper documentation" if law enforcement is unable to ask for it?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

I see nothing in there about racial profiling.

11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of
15 immigration laws; indemnification
16 A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY ADOPT A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR
18 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL
19 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

This means a cop can stop anyone for any reason and bring you in for not having papers that prove you are a legal citizen. It's that simple.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

Is there any question that by making law enforcement officers force citizens to prove their citizenship that non-whites are going to be targeted more than whites?

Again, this is government sponsored harassment of people at the expense of the rights of legal citizens.

Do we really support the discrimination and loss of more rights by legal citizens?

To you're first question, no. The fact is most illegals in that section of the nation are from south of the border. It is just a fact. An unfortunate fact for legal immigrants south of the border.

The fact is it is a federal law already on the books having to provide their green card or proof of citizenship that the state is now empowering their law enforcement to do only after being stopped for a primary offense AND if they meet certain criteria, none of which is race. People meeting such criteria disclosed in the bill, would be "carded" , regardless of race.

Again no different than any country as far as asking for ID, <cough> Japan, but a lot more liberal.

What rights are we losing?

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

How is this harassment?

The fact that you can be a legal citizen but stopped and forced to show your citizenship once, weekly, daily or hourly is government sponsored harassment.

Forcing one group of legal citizens to carry a different level of identification than other groups is discrimination.

Originally Posted by clintjm

I wonder why this hasn't worked?
I think you should submit this to Arizona state legislator.

Because it isn't enforced. Government isn't in the business of harassing big business because by hiring illegals Arizona businesses can keep prices down.

Originally Posted by clintjm

It isn't working. Too many loop holes for those who want to hire illegals, and bad for businesses who hire them by being duped by fake documentation or SSNs.

So then why would we think this new law will work if immigrants consistently use fake papers? A business owner should have the same ability (no more or less) to identify false paperwork as law enforcement officials. If not they should not be hiring immigrant workers. Same standards should be held.

Originally Posted by clintjm

The illegals are going to keep coming work available or not because the lifestyle here is still a step up from where they are coming from.

No. Not if there is no work. Take the lollipop away and the ants disappear. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by clintjm

The U.S. has to attack this from both sides. Just going after businesses is not going to help.

Yes, it will. Take away the lollipop and the ants disappear.

How is the government able to enforce "illegal to enter the country without proper documentation" if law enforcement is unable to ask for it?[/quote]

This encourages the proactive hunting of undocumented residents by the use of "reasonable suspicion": a very vague and a bit frightening amount of power to give.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by MMM

11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of
15 immigration laws; indemnification
16 A. NO OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR
17 OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY ADOPT A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR
18 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL
19 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW.
20 B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS
23 UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

This means a cop can stop anyone for any reason and bring you in for not having papers that prove you are a legal citizen. It's that simple.

You missed the leading part of the sentence that said "Lawful contact"
There has to be lawful contact.

And the race card being where? (as you left my comment about where is racial profiling). This is a federal law already; the state is now allowing state law enforcement to do what the federal government isn't accomplishing.