New Law in the U.S. State: Arizona

[MMM]

Originally Posted by clintjm

Japanese police can ask for my ID to see if I'm legally in the country at anytime too. Are they racists? Are they Nazis too?

Last things first, you just inducted Godwin's Law. I didn't call anyone a Nazi, but now you have. I have made my points clearly, and will address you above points before the "Nazi card" was played and then excuse myself from the conversation. I apologize in advance to anyone that responds to my above posts, as I will no longer respond in this thread.

Originally Posted by clintjm

So we'll just read between the lines instead and just call the bill racists because a person of any race can asked?

You aren't reading. It is racist not because a person of any race can be asked but because only persons of certain races can be asked.

For the fourth time, by your own words, the majority of "illegal immigrants" in Arizona are from "south of the border". Are these white people? No. These are Latinos, Hispanics, brown people, Mexicans, whatever word you want to call them. But they are defined by the color of their skin, and if you think this bill is motivated by anything different then you are lying to yourself.

Again, if you want to keep illegal immigrants out of Arizona (a worthy cause...don't mistake me) then go after the companies and corporations that hire them. It IS that simple. A five-year-old could tell you which companies hire migrant workers. Go on in and check it out. Thousands could be unemployed in an afternoon AND NOT VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF LEGAL IMMIGRANTS AND AMERICAN BORN CITIZENS.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Why would that be illegal? Quote some law, some violation of civil or constitutional rights when you say these things because you are just not making any sense.

How many times a week would you want to show your SSN card or birth certificate or ID to a cop because you have curly brown hair? 8? 5? 3? 0?

Originally Posted by clintjm

What are you talking about? What are you reading? They can't ask a Canadian, Chinese, Middle eastern etc etc etc the same questions? YES THEY CAN.

Don't be naive. Please. Who is the target of this law?

Originally Posted by clintjm

I guess here you are trying to be sarcastic. The laws here are not racial because they can ask one of any race.

One year after this law is enacted tell me with a straight face that the number of brown skin people who are legitimate citizens who are questioned under this law will be smaller than the number of Caucasians.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Many say he has no proof of citizenship as he doesn't have an original birth certificate. Would an out of state license and copy of a birth certificate be good enough?

No, probably not. My state's ID would not be accepted in AZ. Are copies of birth certificates good enough? Please tell me.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Maybe if he wasn't the president and he was walking along the border and couldn't produce ID and if he was suspicious of being an illegal.

Why would he be suspicious?

Would I be suspicious?

Originally Posted by clintjm

Take your Obama bait back to the Obama Hope and Change thread... I thought you have had enough a thrashing already there. Obama is the one putting people into groups now with his latest speech to put people into groups again by calls for young, black, Latino, women voters.

Oh Jesus, don't respond to it then say "take that bait back". You can't have it both ways. Thrashing? Please. Don't be so obviously delusional.

Originally Posted by clintjm

Now you are just being foolish. Yeah, maybe if you'll play your cards right they give you free bus/air fair back to Portland.

How many days would I spend in jail? Just curious.

Originally Posted by clintjm

No, no birth certificate, no passport is required but are acceptable forms of ID, but you do have to produce ID as disclosed in the bill in English by the John Lott article I posted. No different than most places if you are asked by law officials for ID and you fail to produce, then you can be held until you do. They don't have quite the same situation in Portland as they do in Arizona. There is truly a big problem there that is affecting the country as a whole and this jerky attitude that we can't ask people if they are here legally and produce some ID because we might be hurt someone's feelings. This bill doesn't discriminate. They can ask any race they choose.

That's the point. Every state is different, so my ID won't be acceptable in AZ. What they are setting themselves up for is no more tourism in AZ. Especially from people of color. Please don't be so naive that you can't see this.

Originally Posted by clintjm

It is an insult to those who came to this country legally NOT to try to take illegals back to their country. The gangs and the crime coming across the border is killing America literally and economically; yet the Obama has sat on his hands the whole time along with Janet no security Napolitano do not do what the federal government is supposed to do.

I have nothing against stopping crimes happening in the US by people that shouldn't be here. That is not what this law is about.

Originally Posted by clintjm

70% of the Arizona population are thrilled with the state's movement, as they should be.

Japanese police can ask for my ID to see if I'm legally in the country at anytime too. Are they racists? Are they Nazis too?

And back where we started, and why I will not post on this topic again.

[Megabyte117]

Let's get this out of the way - Not all illegal immigrants in Arizona are drug smugglers. A very small portion are. Not all crimes in Arizona are committed by illegal immigrants/hispanics. Yet, our very own beloved Arpaio admits that he arrests "very few" non-hispanics.

Originally Posted by clintjm

So we'll just read between the lines instead and just call the bill racists because a person of any race can asked?

People like Arpaio will certainly not pursue those of white skin.

No, no birth certificate, no passport is required but are acceptable forms of ID, but you do have to produce ID as disclosed in the bill in English by the John Lott article I posted. No different than most places if you are asked by law officials for ID and you fail to produce, then you can be held until you do. They don't have quite the same situation in Portland as they do in Arizona. There is truly a big problem there that is affecting the country as a whole and this jerky attitude that we can't ask people if they are here legally and produce some ID because we might be hurt someone's feelings.

This guy showed his driver's license and was still handcuffed

I don't support illegal immigration, but it is shocking to see how many people regard them all as evil, baby stealing, drug smugglers. Most of them are very hard-working people. But that doesn't mean they deserve to be here for free; I just strongly disagree with this bill as I don't believe it is something that is economically sound for Arizona. As it may recall when it refused to recognize MLK day as a holiday.

[nobora]

I personally don't like this law because it's stupid. If a immigrant is legal they shouldn't have to carry around their document saying that their legal. That document costs 500 dollars to get replaced. After someone did all that paper work for years just to be a citizen and then not be trusted about being one is just dumb. plus most of the jobs that no one wants to do is taken by illegal immigrants.

[manganimefan227]

Exactly! Not all imigrants are bad!

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by nobora

I personally don't like this law because it's stupid. If a immigrant is legal they shouldn't have to carry around their document saying that their legal. That document costs 500 dollars to get replaced. After someone did all that paper work for years just to be a citizen and then not be trusted about being one is just dumb. plus most of the jobs that no one wants to do is taken by illegal immigrants.

If you read the actual bill, which is posted throughout this thread, you don't need to carry a birth certificate or legalization papers etc. All you need is a state DL or State ID or any other government issued ID (listed in the bill and in the John Lott Article).

The fact we have to carry ID, in any country, is a fact of life. Trust has nothing to do with it; police can't trust anyone they stop. Citizens and Legals are not excluded from the horrible question of ID isn't new and you do it every time you interact with state or federal government. The fact is Mexico (Perfect example for this case), Japan, Canada, Europe, etc etc. can ask you for your ID to find your status of legality in the place you are being asked. The only differences is in these countries is they are not hindered by liberal nonsensical talking points of you can't ask me that because I'm of a specific or difference race.

Try refusing ID in any of these countries you'll get similar results in all.
America is no different.

It is also fictional talking point that jobs no one wants are taken by illegal immigrants. A job an illegal takes is a job that a legal immigrant or citizen would gladly take. Illegals taking low paying jobs brings down the income of all. That is why there are limits to the amount of immigrants allowed to migrate to the U.S. at one time. If we just open the flood gates for all to come at once, the country would not be able to sustain it. It is also not fair for the one who have come here legally or have even worked to obtain citizenship.

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Amnesty Regrets:
Reagan Would Not Repeat Amnesty Mistake - HUMAN EVENTS

I think some should take the time to read the bill before commenting with only commentary headline talking points.

Arizona is only doing this because it has to. There is an emergency there as with other states.
The Federal government will not secure the border or will even admit they are unsecured:

Side note:

GOP's Graham: No immigration bill until 2012 - Washington Times

"But under close questioning by Mr. Graham, Ms. Napolitano could not say whether she would declare the border secure if she were still the governor of Arizona. She called it an "unfair question."

"It is a fair question, and I'll give you my answer: I don't think it is," Mr. Graham said. "I think since the last effort to solve immigration the border situation has deteriorated." "

Janet Napolitano is head of homeland security. Kinda of her job to know and to secure the borders.

[clintjm]

Originally Posted by manganimefan227

Exactly! Not all imigrants are bad!

Of course illegals are not blood thirsty monsters by definition.
But with the amount of illegals in the country unable to work breeds gangs, theft and other crime. The statistics on this are staggering and this is the reason Arizona has to act.

Mexico refuses to act on their own country.

Notes:
If you are caught living illegally in Mexico you get 2 years in prison.
If you are caught living illegally in Mexico after being deported you get 10 years in prison.

Do as I say not as I do says Mexico.

[Sangetsu]

What is an "illegal alien"? An illegal alien is someone who entered into and resides inside America without legal permission. By that definition such a person is breaking the law, and is subject to arrest.

Why should illegal aliens not be arrested for committing such a crime? Why should police not be allowed to arrest them for committing such a crime?

Do companies knowingly hire illegal aliens in America? Is this against the law? Yes. Why does it occur? Because the federal government still refuses to implement a mandatory immigration status database.

If a person comes to your company with a social security card and fills out the form saying he is a legal resident or citizen, you must take him at his word, even if he doesn't speak a word of English. There is no way to tell if he is what he says is true or not.

Anyone in America (including MMM) who is interviewed for a job in America is required by law to fill out a questionnaire asking about one's citizenship or residential status before he can be hired for a job. Unfortunately, this questionnaire is never verified by anyone, it is a joke. An employer may suspect or believe that the person applying for a job is an illegal alien, but since there is no way to check a person's immigration statue, and with the existence of anti-discrimination laws, an employer has his hands tied.

Any illegal alien who gives a false social security number when applying for a job commits a federal crime, in addition to the crime of illegally entering the country in the first place.

MMM, what if you were a construction contractor trying to feed your family, and your wages were reduced from the $18 an hour which was paid 25 years ago to the $10 an hour which is paid today? Would you still think that the immigration law was unfair? If one of your children gets sick and you have to go to the emergency room and have to weight 10 or 12 hours to see a doctor because the emergency room is full of "people of color" from Mexico or Guatemala, would you think the immigration law was unfair? If one of your family members was killed by an illegal alien who was driving drunk (figures are hard to come by, but the best estimate is that illegal aliens are responsible for about 5% of accidents in America, which means 2000 deaths, 140,000 injuries, a $11.5 billion in damages), would you still think the immigration law was unfair?

Use Japan as an example when comparing immigration policies. Japanese police routinely check foreigners for their visas or residency cards. Is this racial profiling? Of course it is. Do I care? Of course not, I am here legally, and I don't mind showing my ID to any Japanese policeman who asks me for it. The law in Japan says that foreigners must present their ID/passport upon request to any police officer who requests it, he doesn't need any "just cause" to ask.

Since all of you Japan fans now know that Japanese police have these powers, does it change your mind about liking Japan? Does it make you not want to live in Japan? Probably not.

[kunitokotachi]

Originally Posted by MMM

You answered your own question. Reasonable Suspicion. That's a nice way of saying Racial Profiling.

Reasonable suspicion does not equal racial profiling. I can give a good example of reasonable suspicion:

Let's say an officer notices an individual loittering on public property and the officer approaches the individual to inform him or her that they need to leave. The individual makes an attempt to answer but it is apparent the individual cannot speak any or much English; the individual is not understand the officer's command. The officer decides to run a check. The officer discovers that the individual is in the country illegally.

[kunitokotachi]

Originally Posted by clintjm

If you read the actual bill, which is posted throughout this thread, you don't need to carry a birth certificate or legalization papers etc. All you need is a state DL or State ID or any other government issued ID (listed in the bill and in the John Lott Article).
.

I'm glad that you brought up this point about government identification. Actually, In some states you can be arrested for not being able to provide proper identification in some situations. State ID, driver's license, or Green card works fine. Military ID works too. Even in Japan it is required that foreigners have their 外国人登録証 or passport on them.

[fluffy0000]

Immigration Project A Project of the University of Arizona’s Udall Center for Studies in Public PolicyThe Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy,
below excerpted 2007' policy study;

At the University of Arizona, if you looked at the full balance sheet to see what ( illegal ) immigrants put into the economy and what they take out. In particular they studied the impact of immigrants, mostly illegal, on the economic conditions in Arizona.

On a whole they found ( illegal ) immigrants contributed more to the economy then they cost. No surprise there. Where the supporters of SB 1070 concentrate on only cost, this study also considered benefits. For instance, “non-citizen households” in Arizona had consumer spending, in 2004, of $4.41 billion. That created an estimated 28,000 full-time jobs. In addition that spending “generated tax revenues of approximately $318.6 million.

But then these illegals “steal jobs” as well. Supposedly “skilled” jobs according to pro SB 1070 pundits. The Udall Center found that 14 percent of the Arizona workforce is made up of immigrants but they held a disproportionate number of “low-skilled” positions in agriculture, construction, manufacturing and some areas of the service industry. Almost 60 percent of agricultural workers were immigrants. About 22 percent of food preparers and servers were immigrants. About 35 to 41 percent of construction workers were immigrants. The same for 46 percent of textile workers, 51 percent of landscaping workers and 38 percent of maintenance workers.

Working illegal immigrates contributes to the economy of the state ( Arizona ) and the Udall Center found:

Non-citizens, for their part, contributed $28.9 billion, or eight percent of Arizona’s economic output, resulting in 278,000 full-time equivalent jobs. Their output included $10 billion in labor income, and $3.3 billion in other property income. The state tax revenues resulting from this economic activity were approximately $1.08 billion.

The study concluded that the state of Arizona took in tax revenue of $1.64 billion from ( illegal ) immigrant workers while the amount the state spent on immigrants was approximately $1.41 billion leaving a net benefit of $222.6 million to the state coffers. But that is only what they contribute to Arizona’s revenue. They also pay national income taxes and social security taxes.
The Udall Center study addresses the case of 'false Social Security numbers -What's more, aliens ( illegals ) who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.