What's it like for an American to live in Japan?

[steven]

GoNative, I hate to say it, but I think people like you in your situation are the minority as far as people from English speaking countries living in Japan goes. I can see where you're coming from by not liking what I said there though.

However, in the case of ALTs it's a free ride basically... they are letting foreigners live here in that case, and I think that accounts for most (native) English speaking foreigners in this country. Going back to the title of the topic, Americans don't have to pay taxes in Japan (for a period of time).

I have to say though, I tend to side with chiuchimu on this issue though. I'm not gonna say that all foreigners should try as hard as they can to become Japanese though. I'd say that it would be to your own benefit to fit in/learn intricate manners. In the work place (unless you work for a place that encourages your foreigner-ness) I would think it very important. From my perspective, though, I'd say Japan is... extremely particular about far too many things (which is apparent with some of the language). I think it's to the point that most Japanese people don't even know everything. Expecting a foreigner to have a grasp on every little detail is a bit unrealistic and I don't think most Japanese hold foreigners to such standards. The more obvious things on the other hand can be picked up by simple observation. Unfortunately there are a lot of those kinds of things that some people just never get (Japanese included). It's like an extreme form of "KY". Add language difficiency, different clothes, different morals, strange mannerisms, and different facial features and it can make for an annoying situation for some people. To be fair though, some Japanese people like all that stuff about foreigners (which could help explain eikaiwas).

I think I've posted this story on here before... I can't quite remember. I had the pleasure to go out with one of the more respected members of my community. He happened to be pretty proficient at English. We were talking about linguistics, among other things of course, and during that time we had a similar conversation to this one. At one point I got pretty frank and said if Japan was serious about their English education they'd work more on teaching actual English. I said language is more than just words and that it has to do with culture and the way that culture affects nonverbal language. I said they could just show an episode or two of a TV show everyday from 1st grade (elementary) all through middle school and the kids would probably surpase their teachers in listening ability. He said there's no doubt that that would work, but it would screw up Japan's ability to teach kids "how to be Japanese". The way he said it of course had a lot more power and meaning behind it... but that was the first time I'd talked to someone in Japan who completely knew where I was coming from but disagreed... he was geniunely worried about Japanese morals, basically. He said that as a speaker of English, he was fine with being a foreigner and that is all part of it.

Hearing that made me remember that part of being in another country is that exchange of culture. Throwing away everything you know to create some new self is a waste... but before you can teach people about your country and all that I think it's important for them to be able to take you seriously. It's creating an on-off switch. It's weird but this reminds me of simultaneous interpretation... you have two completely different language "styles" to deal with at the same time.

[GoNative]

Originally Posted by steven

He said there's no doubt that that would work, but it would screw up Japan's ability to teach kids "how to be Japanese". The way he said it of course had a lot more power and meaning behind it... but that was the first time I'd talked to someone in Japan who completely knew where I was coming from but disagreed... he was geniunely worried about Japanese morals, basically. He said that as a speaker of English, he was fine with being a foreigner and that is all part of it.

I find this interesting and I suspect his comments are not unrepresentative.
I also think this is one of the reasons why the Japanese governement have been reticent to opening up the borders to immigration. I think this country is held together and works as well as it does only because of what he refers to as "how to be Japanese". Western ways of thinking here would definitely have major consequences, both good and bad. But they would be unpredictable and from my experience the Japanese people aren't too keen on unpredictable. They love an order to things. With much of the population well taught in "how to be Japanese" it's not too hard to predict how they will react. I think one of the hardest things for the Japanese in interactions with foreigners is that they can't predict very well how they will react.

[dogsbody70]

Originally Posted by MMM

FOB is short for "Fresh Off the Boat" and is a term usually used by Niseis, Sanseis etc. to describe new arrivals from their mother country (even if they were not born there, but their parents or grandparents were).

It is generally considered a derogatory expression. "Look at that FOB. He doesn't even know how to use a knife and fork!"

thank you very much for that information MMM.

[chiuchimu]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I find this interesting and I suspect his comments are not unrepresentative.
I also think this is one of the reasons why the Japanese governement have been reticent to opening up the borders to immigration. I think this country is held together and works as well as it does only because of what he refers to as "how to be Japanese". Western ways of thinking here would definitely have major consequences, both good and bad. But they would be unpredictable and from my experience the Japanese people aren't too keen on unpredictable. They love an order to things. With much of the population well taught in "how to be Japanese" it's not too hard to predict how they will react. I think one of the hardest things for the Japanese in interactions with foreigners is that they can't predict very well how they will react.

Yes, A good side to that is we Japanese can communicate among ourselves with less words because we can predict/assume what the other person position/reaction would be. Foreigners like Americans are very vocal which is good also since everything is clear and in the open. Put the two together as is and it doesn't mix will. The Japanese person comes off thinking the American is too selfish and aggressive(simply because he says things openly and in black and white) while the American comes off thinking the Japanese are two faced and racist( simply because they don't say whats on there minds but ultimately behave in a way that the American can read between the lines later). That came out sounding bad, more simply, The American thought his Japanese friend thought one way only to find out later(somehow or another) that his friend actually thought different. It's hard to make this clear, I think americans in Japan know what I'm getting at.

Does this fit into changing to fit in? I don't know. But I agree with Steve that it would be in the visitors best interest to get some of this covered. At least what it takes to get a job and a place to live.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I said act, talk, and look Japanese. I haven't changed my statement. I even wrote several paragraphs to clarify what I meant. Why not get a haircut like everyone else, Why not dress in whats in? we all do it in our own countries-follow fads and what not, If you don't like the hairstyles and fashions , fine don't follow them. . Regardless of taste, how is wearing Japan fashion giving up something of your self? How is it changing your personality?

I already explained that the popular haircuts in Japan would not look good on me, or most Caucasians. You weren't talking about following fashion if it fits me. If that is what you had said, I wouldn't have disagreed. My point is changing my personal fashion because, according to society's expectations of me. I don't think those expectations are there. Remember, this is what you said:

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Clothes mannerism, hair cut, facial expression. posture etc..

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

It's what NORMAL people do when they go to live in a foreign country. It's what the people of the host country expects out of foreigners. What part of this don't you get??

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I bit you stood out like a soar thumb.

People aren't like you. They want to fit into the society they live in.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

That's like saying:
" I'm Joe American, I can't follow Japanese fads, I can only follow American ones!"
That is so lame. everyone follows fads, trends and styles in there respective countries yet, moving to Japan, now following fashion means Changing the core of your being.

I didn't say I couldn't follow fashions, I said that I don't think Japanese society expects me to follow them.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

If hairstyle, clothes define your personality or defines who you are, then don't change a thing. But don't blame Japan. Long hair and certain clothing means no job for you. Maybe no apartment either. Tatto = No job. Looking a certain way means some people might want to approach you whiles others won't have anything to do with you. Think things carefully and make your choices.

I think hairstyle and fashion sense is a part of EVERYONE'S personality.

And I lived in Jpan and go back fairly often. I also know I don't need to adopt Japanese street dress and hairstyles to be accepted there. I would contend that Westerners that try to "become Japanese" as you said actually turn Japanese people off.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

To be clear, no more misunderstandings, I'm saying the more you fit in - the more you are going to fit in. It's your choice on what to do and not do. Whatever you define to be your personality or identity is your business. I never said to change who you are. you decide what happens so don't bitch about it later and say no one told you.

I'm born in Nagasaki Japan, I'm greencard in the U.S. I never said I was nisei, I said it's easy to tell nisei from 'New people'.

I am saying if you try and adopt Japanese styles you may get the opposite result. I never changed my fashion to "fit in" and I fit in just fine. If cutting my hair like other Japanese men or wearing a certain type of clothes to "fit in" is what someone needs to be friends with me, then I don't want to be friends with them. I made plenty of friends in Japan (many of which I am still friends with 15+ years later) and they like me for me, not for what country my clothes are from.

And I asked about where you were from because I remember this post from you:

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Whale meat has been eaten in Nagasaki for a long time. It is delicious. My Grandma, when alive, used to prepare it for me when I went to see her in Japan.

No Nation or people have the right to judge the culture and customs of another.

So you have lived in the US quite a long time...

[chiuchimu]

@MMM

This is my first post: The original intent is clear. I shall high light key points. I ended up going on a wild goose chase trying to answer your questions. If my intended meaning got lost or got misinterpreted in this exchange, I'll take the blame for not being more concise with my words.

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

I'm not an American living in Japan - I'm Japanese living in America, but I've seen enough of the former to say the answer depends on the person.

Some Americans are going to have a great time while some are going to regret their stay.

Knowing both cultures pretty well, My word of advice to an American going to Japan is:
1) Learn as much as possible about manners and etiquette. Manners are important in Japan and are different from U.S.

2) Learn to read the atmosphere and brush up on your social graces. It's impossible to read and remember every dos and don'ts from a book, so good people skills helps smooth things over.

3) Japan is a group oriented country rather than an individual oriented country. Make good presentable Japanese friends, specially of the same sex as yourself. From everything to getting a job or finding an apartment, not only can they help you by word of mouth, but they give you credibility.

These three things should help you the most into integrating into Japanese society and start opening up doors for you.

Final not: If your going to Japan for the girls, then leave the average girl alone. you'll just add to the bad foreigner gossip and hardly score anyway. The Japanese girls that want foreign guys go out of there way to seek them out; military bars, sports bars etc... where foreign guys hang out, that's' where they go. The ones I saw at the Nagasaki Navel base bar were very pretty but they didn't want to have anything to do with me since I'm Japanese.

Bold1Depends on the person.
Everyone's different, no one tip will work for all.

Bold2:Some Americans are going to have a great time while some are going to regret their stay.
This is a true statement. It will depend on what you do, how you interpret and react to things as well as how people interpret you and treat you and react to you.

Bold3:My word of advice.
This is my opinion. not fact. These were tips to help the newbie do will in Japan. No one has to follow any of my advice. you don't even have to agree with my tips.

Bold4:These three things should help you the most into integrating into Japanese society and start opening up doors for you.
Here I am recapping that this is advice to help you in Japan.

Then the thread went all over the place. but i stand by the core of what I meant.

I am saying if you try and adopt Japanese styles you may get the opposite result. I never changed my fashion to "fit in" and I fit in just fine. If cutting my hair like other Japanese men or wearing a certain type of clothes to "fit in" is what someone needs to be friends with me, then I don't want to be friends with them. I made plenty of friends in Japan (many of which I am still friends with 15+ years later) and they like me for me, not for what country my clothes are from.

If it works for you fine. People are different.

One point though: There is a huge and varied types of hair styles and fashions in Japan -Id say the fashions in Japan ranges from everything America and Europe have and much more. The Japanese industry is huge including lots of import labels too. You make it sound like people don't have choices in Japan. But sure, if nothing is to your taste in Japanese clothing or it takes away from your identity, you can always buy online from America and have it shipped to Japan. I live in the U.S. and as much as I like some Japanese fashion items, I buy all my stuff at the local mall. I don't have this great fashion need to import my clothes from Japan.

[steven]

Originally Posted by chiuchimu

Does this fit into changing to fit in? I don't know. But I agree with Steve that it would be in the visitors best interest to get some of this covered. At least what it takes to get a job and a place to live.

I think what you said does have to do with fitting in. There is clearly a linguistic aspect to all of what you said about Japan. There's certain things that, as a foreigner, you'd not be able to pick up in a conversation if you didn't have an understanding of a lot of the subtler things.

However I think most Japanese are aware of this by now and are able to adjust their language so it'd be easier to understand for a foreigner.

That statement that I just made is kind of flawed thinking though... Especially from a Japanese perspective (I'd think). Going somewhere and expecting people to change something just for you is rude. Even expecting-- or making verbally apparent what would be normal is rude. It's like going to someone's house and being like "where's my tea?". The host not giving you tea could be a form of communication. Maybe they are busy and have to go somewhere, but they don't want to have to be blunt with you about it. Japanese people are on the same page about stuff like this... some foreigners are and some aren't. 気を使う goes beyond words and well into the territory of actions. So if you don't do something at a certain time (which you'd do based on verbal and non verbal cues) then you're gonna look weird. I think that is a huge part of this conversation about "fitting in".

I think most people know about the term on this forum, but I'm sure at least a couple don't. Knowing this phrase might help explain what I meant: KY = Kuki Yomenai 空気読めない. 空気 (kuki) means something like 'air'. 読めない means like 'can't read'. In English we have a phrase that goes 'read between the lines'. This goes for written language-- you are expected to understand that there is something else going on... beyond what is written down. In Japanese that goes for spoken language (I wouldn't know about the written language much). You're supposed to be able to read and react appropriately to peoples' actions, to what people say (and everything 'in between the lines' of what they say), as well as to the 'air' between people. By linguistic cues alone you can tell if someone is older or higher up. There is physical and linguistic distance. Not being able to understand that (along with a bunch of other subtle things... which are a part of 'fitting in') makes you "KY".

[steven]

Sorry to double post, but I thought this data has something to do with our conversation:

Japanese working overseas, and overseas workers in Japan | 世論 What Japan Thinks

Check out Q8 and all of its parts. According to the Japanese surveyed, a foreign worker's Japanese ability is obviously important. Understanding of Japanese culture and customs was above "specialist ability" (which I'm assuming is one's ability to perform in a job). I think that says a lot. The people surveyed are people interested in working abroad, so I'd imagine them to be the more relaxed type when it comes to those things.

I'd bet that a Japanese person's opinion on ability to do a job is directly related to a person's understanding of their culutre and customs.

As an aside, I found it funny that nearly 25% of the Japanese surveyed claim to be able to at least "get by on a holiday without problems". 95% of the people surveyed have never been to a foreign country (I say "been" because their opinion of "living" can happen in less than a year). Beyond that, over 8% of the people surveyed feel they are able to do everyday conversation and beyond... Granted those surveyed had an interest in working abroad. Those numbers seem a little confident.

[GoNative]

I guess it all depends on how concerned you are with 'fitting in'.
As I've said previously, where I live there is a thriving expat community and most of the Japanese I interact with on a regular basis speak good english and have lived overseas previously. I've only ever worked for foreign owned companies here that have western workplace cultures.
I never came to live in Japan because of a love of Japanese culture, I came for a love of Japanese powder snow. Niseko is really not like living in real Japan and frankly that's another reason I love it so much.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I guess it all depends on how concerned you are with 'fitting in'.
As I've said previously, where I live there is a thriving expat community and most of the Japanese I interact with on a regular basis speak good english and have lived overseas previously. I've only ever worked for foreign owned companies here that have western workplace cultures.
I never came to live in Japan because of a love of Japanese culture, I came for a love of Japanese powder snow. Niseko is really not like living in real Japan and frankly that's another reason I love it so much.

You don't have to keep stating how much you hate Japanese culture, dude. We all know it by now.