American in Hiroshima...

[Enkidu22]

Originally Posted by MMM

Right. In order to save lives (part of a soldier's job) they didn't demonize the god the Japanse believed in, and worked with him to stabalize the country. As missions go, I would say that one went pretty well.

But the thing is they didn't wanted to do this until the very last days. They agreed only when Swiss embassy put them before accomplished fact of japanese government agreeing to capitulate if they leave the emperor intact. Truman didn't have a choice but to agree, the whole world wanted the war to end as fast as possible. Also US politics didn't even try to negociate, they just wanted to force Japan into capitulation by destroying it's cities, no mather the cost in civilian lives. Even Vatican tried to negociate with japanese government while US didn't.
Besides I really doubt that US would ever begin the land invasion. They would rather bomb and bomb and bomb again until Japan would surrender. That's the US tactic. Same happened in Vietnam when they would rather drop napalm on a village rather than risk "precious american lives" in normal assault. Ever heard of camps for vietnam peasants where they died of hunger? And US generals were saying that's it's for their own good so they wouldn't get recruited by Vietcong. Not to mention that McArthur wanted to use A-bombs in Korea when he realized they can't win the war. And they weren't used just becouse the eastern block had their own nuclear weapons and would retaliate.

You have to understand that japanese government knew they will lose and while many really wanted to fight to the end half of them didn't, but instead of using this and negociating US didn't care and continued to kill civilians. And it's not just my opinion, most of WW II specialists think that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't necesary for Japan's capitulation. And I'm not talking about american specialists.

But seriously we already proved that we can't convince each other so let's just stop this ok. I only hope some people would read this topic from the beginning as it turned into quite interesting debate ^_^

[samurai007]

Tenchu, I see little point in debating you further. It's clear that you are an irrational America-hater who has created all kinds of justifications for your hatred, and you are unwilling to see any other view. Yeah, the US will have more accidental fire because Australia has 500 combat soldiers there (and another 1,000 support staff) and we have 150,000... gee, which group is going to have more accidental shootings?

Osama is an irrational bastard who has dreams of establishing a world-wide Islamo-fascist Caliphate and wiping out the "degenerate, debauched, decadent" Great Satan of America, and any other free people who might stand in his way or refuse to submit. If you're trying to say his reasons for attacking us many times over the years are perfectly reasonable and legitimate, I think that says more about you than Osama... and if you're trying to say Osama attacked us on 9/11 in return for our actions in Iraq or Afghanistan, look at a calender and see which happened first.

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by noodle

Just thought i'd answer to this then leave it... The only statistics that pointed to using the bomb were the EXTREEME ones...

--A study done by Adm. Nimitz's staff in May estimated 49,000 casualties in the first 30 days, including 5,000 at sea.
--A study done by General MacArthur's staff in June estimated 23,000 in the first 30 days and 125,000 after 120 days.
When these figures were questioned by General Marshall, MacArthur submitted a revised estimate of 105,000, in part by deducting wounded men able to return to duty.

So you see, some if not most of the figures are nowhere near the 500,000.
A lot of people in the office believe that Truman had a hatdred towards the japanese and had a motive to drop the bombs.

You do realize that the casualties stated in those reports were for US forces only, and that many more Japanese would have died as well, right? Also, those were preliminary reports, and later reports (end of July) adjusted it much higher because it was discovered that Japan was greatly reinforcing Kyushu and its homeland defenses.

The conclusions of the 29 July intelligence estimate were:

- The rate and probable continuity of Japanese reinforcements into the Kyushu area are changing the tactical and strategic situation sharply.... we are engaged in a race against time by which the ratio of attack-effort vis-a-vis defense capacity is perilously balanced.

- The Japanese have correctly estimated southern Kyushu as a probable invasion objective, and have hastened their preparations to defend it.

- Japanese strength in southern Kyushu has grown to an estimated 206,000 troops. 7 divisions and 2 to 3 independent brigades, plus Naval, Air-Ground, and Base and Service troops.

- Unless the use of these (supply) routes is restricted by air and/or naval action ... enemy forces in southern Kyushu may be still further augmented until our planned local superiority is overcome, and the Japanese will enjoy complete freedom of action in organizing the area and in completing their preparations for defense.

This new estimate warned that if the Japanese troop deployments into Kyushu were not checked then the U.S. attack ratio may become one (1) to one (1). The figure given to Truman at the outset based on his planning called for a 3 to 1 advantage to the American invasion forces.

The suspected casualty figures were growning in mutiples of tens of thousands by the time the first A-Bomb was exploded in New Mexico. One of the impacts that this estimate had was in the mind of General Marshall, for he contemplated the possibility of using the newly developed atomic bomb against Japanese forces on Kyushu in support of the invasion instead of against Japanese cities. Japan surrendered before there were any formal revisions to the Olympic plan or new casualty estimates were made using this revised estimate of Japanese strength.

The U.S. intelligence estimates of July 1945 were alarming to Olympic planners.

They warned that the build-up of Japanese forces in southern Kyushu was reducing the U.S. attack force ratio of 3:1 to 1:1. In fact, the Japanese by this time had surpassed the 1:1 ratio and actually outnumbered the American invasion force.

In July 1945, the U.S. intelligence estimates were underestimating Japanese strength on Kyushu by about 36 percent! The underestimation of Japanese forces resulted from the continuous movement of Japanese forces into Kyushu throughout the spring and early summer of 1945.

Atomic Bombs in WWII

This is why later projections had much higher casualty figures for both US and Japanese forces, because after the war it became apparent that they'd severely underestimated the Japanese forces on Kyushu.

[samurai007]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

My jusification is my honor. My hate of cowrads. My justification is my honor. My hate of those who think it is right to kill the innocent. You think it is right to kill the innocent. You are a blind coward.

Honor? You feel it is better to kill millions of people than a few hundred thousand. There is no honor in such massive, needless bloodshed.

[Enkidu22]

If you are talking about massive, needless bloodshed then what about 1.2 milion people killed in Iraq? And why they were killed... to trial and execute one man, and seriously don't tell me that Bush really believed him to be Ibn Laden's ally or that he wanted to bring democracy to the Iraq. Also I don't know if you heard that Husain was at the beginning US agent and US bring him to power.

Also one of the reasons why iraqis hate US soldiers so much is becouse they are ultra arogant and they don't give a damn about local customs and traditions. They believe that US culture and style of life is the best in the world and all others are crap that should be americanized. That is the biggest reason why even civilians oppose them, they hate people who came from distant country and tell them what to do and how to live. And don't tell me those are lies becouse I meet polish soldiers who were in Iraq and they told me how US soldiers behave. They often prefer to bomb bildings rather than search them, no matter if they are civilian homes or not (or even if there are people inside). Later they report that they killed "terrorists".

And to the Hiroshima thing, I'm just too lazy to write much myself so I checked the net, it took me one google search to find tons of opinions alike to mine and that's one of them:
The Hiroshima Myth by John V. Denson
Most (crushing majority) non american WW II specialists agree on that, it's a shame that most US citizens don't.

[MMM]

Originally Posted by Enkidu22

If you are talking about massive, needless bloodshed then what about 1.2 milion people killed in Iraq? And why they were killed... to trial and execute one man, and seriously don't tell me that Bush really believed him to be Ibn Laden's ally or that he wanted to bring democracy to the Iraq. Also I don't know if you heard that Husain was at the beginning US agent and US bring him to power.

Also one of the reasons why iraqis hate US soldiers so much is becouse they are ultra arogant and they don't give a damn about local customs and traditions. They believe that US culture and style of life is the best in the world and all others are crap that should be americanized. That is the biggest reason why even civilians oppose them, they hate people who came from distant country and tell them what to do and how to live. And don't tell me those are lies becouse I meet polish soldiers who were in Iraq and they told me how US soldiers behave. They often prefer to bomb bildings rather than search them, no matter if they are civilian homes or not (or even if there are people inside). Later they report that they killed "terrorists".

And to the Hiroshima thing, I'm just too lazy to write much myself so I checked the net, it took me one google search to find tons of opinions alike to mine and that's one of them:
The Hiroshima Myth by John V. Denson
Most (crushing majority) non american WW II specialists agree on that, it's a shame that most US citizens don't.

I agree with your first paragraph 100% (except it's not the topic we are discussing).

I think your second paragraph is a WEE BIT sweeping and general. I'd like to hear more about the "arrogance" of soldier's not respecting Iraqi culture. I know there are situations were soldiers have not been completely respectful. But for each one of those there is a story of soldiers getting their families back hope to send everything from socks to soccer balls for the Iraqis in the neighborhoods where they are stationed. You see kids surrounding soldiers as they walk the streets. I am just saying there are all kinds of people and soldiers and if they were all as bad as you seem to think we would be seeing very different images on the news.

I talked to a soldier in Iraq who describes the very situation you described at the end. His platoon was told to bomb a building that made IEDs. They bombed the building and went through the wreckage. In it they found women and children among the wreckage. And IED parts and machinery. It was an IED factory full of women and children who were building them. My point is that it isn't always black and white.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am just saying there are all kinds of people and soldiers and if they were all as bad as you seem to think we would be seeing very different images on the news.

I can't comment on most of what you said because i'd just be making assumptions as i know almost nothing about it!!! BUT as for the line i quoted... There is a reason for that... My brother works for Al jazeera News station!!! He's based in Qatar right now!!! Last time i spoke to him a couple of months ago, he told me a story... A camera man was filming American soldiers in Iraq... He filmed this soldier (man), and an Iraqi Woman who was wearing tradition arab/muslim clothes with Hijab (head scarf/ veil)... For some reason, this soldier wanted to search her because he suspected her of something! He tried to search her in public by putting his hands on her and the woman just SLAPPED him... Aparently, my brother wasn't allowed to Air this video because it would have made the US army seem like they were not respecting other peoples cultures/religions/rights... Aparently it was JUST because of this reason!!

This is just to say that, there are plenty of things that aren't allowed to be shown on TV... My brother tells me these kind of stories all the time.

[MMM]

Does the US Army tell Al-Jezeera what they can and can't air in their news broadcasts? That would be news in the US if that were true. I am not saying it wouldn't surprise me...

I would say that please know there are soldiers and families of soldiers that are against the war...a lot of them...and that the brazen policies of Bush and his administration don't spread to every American, and every American soldier.

Listen, this thread is about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and arguments for both cases have been made, and I am not sure if there is much more that can be said that hasn't already. Both sides can find stats to support their arguments, which goes to show how much don't or can't know for sure.

Let's keep these non-flame discussions going, though.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by MMM

Does the US Army tell Al-Jezeera what they can and can't air in their news broadcasts? That would be news in the US if that were true. I am not saying it wouldn't surprise me...

I would say that please know there are soldiers and families of soldiers that are against the war...a lot of them...and that the brazen policies of Bush and his administration don't spread to every American, and every American soldier.

Listen, this thread is about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and arguments for both cases have been made, and I am not sure if there is much more that can be said that hasn't already. Both sides can find stats to support their arguments, which goes to show how much don't or can't know for sure.

Let's keep these non-flame discussions going, though.

Like i said... if i say anything against about what you wrote it would be assumptions... my reply was just simply to that line i quoted... I was just pointing out that A LOT of news is hidden!!

And yeah, i definately agree... This thread was rather good and no flaming at all which was great!!!

[Enkidu22]

MMM of course I know that most americans are against the war and many US soldiers are good people who really want to help iraqis, but from what I know (and I know that from people who were there) 2/3 of them don't. They call them stupid/dirty/ugly and often laught at them in public, you don't have to know english to understand such things and iraqis understand. Also I heard about things like US soldiers giving iraqis beer out of good will not knowing that alcohol is forbidden for muslims, and therefore offending them. Such situations are very often. Seriously 90% of US soldiers just aren't properly prepared and trained for this mission.

About the infos on the news I think noodle covered it very good. Don't believe in everything you see in TV.