KyleGoetz's Thread of Questions

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

OK, a new set of words that are similar in meaning to me. How are they different?

推理する = to induce
推論する = to deduce

推測する = to guess, to conjecture (not based on reliable info)
推定する = to estimate, to assume (based on some reliable info)

[KyleGoetz]

Next question as I get closer and closer to that complete study of joyo kanji!

There are two readings for 足跡, そくせき and あしあと. How are they different?

I'd have a lot of other questions to ask, but I'm getting better at answering them via Google now that I can read more kanji! Things like the difference between 飛ぶ and 跳ぶ, 慎む and 謹む, etc., which I can now just read about in style guides and such.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

Next question as I get closer and closer to that complete study of joyo kanji!

There are two readings for 足跡, そくせき and あしあと. How are they different?

I'd have a lot of other questions to ask, but I'm getting better at answering them via Google now that I can read more kanji! Things like the difference between 飛ぶ and 跳ぶ, 慎む and 謹む, etc., which I can now just read about in style guides and such.

そくせき and あしあと are very different from each other.

あしあと is a physical footprint of a person or animal.

そくせき is the history and achivements of a person.

[KyleGoetz]

OK, so I feel like a complete idiot having to ask this question, but I'm having a brain fart today and can't think straight:
母に起こされた = I was woken up by my mother.

私が起きた = I woke up.
So why isn't "I was woken up by my mother" 母に起きられた? It's just the passive of 起きた. Why do you use the passive of 起こす instead?

I was going to point out that 私は食べる = I ate, 私に食べる = was eaten by me, but 食べる is a 他動詞 and 起きる is a 自動詞 (起こす is the 他動詞).

Is that why? And why am I feeling so dumb today?!

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

OK, so I feel like a complete idiot having to ask this question, but I'm having a brain fart today and can't think straight:
母に起こされた = I was woken up by my mother.

私が起きた = I woke up.
So why isn't "I was woken up by my mother" 母に起きられた? It's just the passive of 起きた. Why do you use the passive of 起こす instead?

I was going to point out that 私は食べる = I ate, 私に食べる = was eaten by me, but 食べる is a 他動詞 and 起きる is a 自動詞 (起こす is the 他動詞).

Is that why? And why am I feeling so dumb today?!

It's all about 自動詞/他動詞.

There is no passive for 起きる　because it's a 自動詞. You cannot say 「someoneを起きる」 to mean "to wake someone up". It's 「someoneを起こす」.

Active voice：
「母は私を起こした。」 = Mom woke me up.
「私は起きた。」 = I woke up.

Passive voice:
「私は母に起こされた。」 = I was woken up by Mom.
_____

You cannot say 私に食べる. That is 私に食べられる for the passive voice.
_____

Finally, 母に起きられた means something completely different.
It means "Mom woke up (and made my plans go to waste.)"

You had plans to do something early in the morning to surprise your family. You got up early and started to work on your secret plans. You made too much noise in the process and that woke your mom up. She comes to your room and asks what in the world you're doing.

At that moment, you may say 「しまった。母に起きられちゃった。」.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

It's all about 自動詞/他動詞.

There is no passive for 起きる　because it's a 自動詞. You cannot say 「someoneを起きる」 to mean "to wake someone up". It's 「someoneを起こす」.

Active voice：
「母は私を起こした。」 = Mom woke me up.
「私は起きた。」 = I woke up.

Passive voice:
「私は母に起こされた。」 = I was woken up by Mom.
_____

You cannot say 私に食べる. That is 私に食べられる for the passive voice.
_____

Finally, 母に起きられた means something completely different.
It means "Mom woke up (and made my plans go to waste.)"

You had plans to do something early in the morning to surprise your family. You got up early and started to work on your secret plans. You made too much noise in the process and that woke your mom up. She comes to your room and asks what in the world you're doing.

At that moment, you may say 「しまった。母に起きられちゃった。」.

1. Thank you. I was thinking it was a 自動詞／他動詞 thing, but didn't feel confident enough to "formulate" the rule that 自動詞 doesn't do 受け身.

2. I know you can't do 私に食べた—it was supposed to be 食べられた, but I made a typo in haste. :/ Embarrassing! 食べる is 他動詞, so it's OK to make 受け身 out of it based on the observation you made and I mentioned in #1.

3. Yeah, I'm aware of the other meaning that looks like passive. Well, actually, there are two, right? You can use the same/similar form to express something like an honorific, too, right?

Something like 母が水を飲まれた for "Mother drank water." I'm not sure, though, because whatever it is, I learned it five or six years ago and basically never used it outside of class, so I don't have control over the grammar structure in my head anymore.

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

3. Yeah, I'm aware of the other meaning that looks like passive. Well, actually, there are two, right? You can use the same/similar form to express something like an honorific, too, right?

Right, the honorific.

The important part of 母に起きられた is the use of に.　This implies that the speaker has received some kind of damage.

Do you know the difference between the following sentences?　It's of importance. Hint: Which one uses an honorific? What does the other one mean?　

1.　カイルさんは行かれました。
2.　カイルさんに行かれました。

Something like 母が水を飲まれた for "Mother drank water." I'm not sure, though, because whatever it is, I learned it five or six years ago and basically never used it outside of class, so I don't have control over the grammar structure in my head anymore.

That sentence will be good if you change the subject. We don't really use the honorific when speaking about our own parents.

[KyleGoetz]

Originally Posted by Sashimister

Do you know the difference between the following sentences?　It's of importance. Hint: Which one uses an honorific? What does the other one mean?　

1.　カイルさんは行かれました。
2.　カイルさんに行かれました。

I think the first one is just "Kyle went" but is honorific, so I suppose I am of higher social rank than the speaker.

I think the second one is "Kyle went [and I, the speaker, was harmed by it]." Perhaps the speaker likes a girl who was at the party, and I showed up and the girl spoke all night with me. So the speaker later told his buddy カイルさんに行かれました.

Is that correct?

[Sashimister]

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz

I think the first one is just "Kyle went" but is honorific, so I suppose I am of higher social rank than the speaker.

Correct. カイルさん is the subject of the sentence.

I think the second one is "Kyle went [and I, the speaker, was harmed by it]." Perhaps the speaker likes a girl who was at the party, and I showed up and the girl spoke all night with me. So the speaker later told his buddy カイルさんに行かれました.

Is that correct?

Kind of. It means "Kyle left me/us behind." The speaker had expected to go with Kyle but Kyle went without the speaker.

Even tough it's still "Kyle" that's the subject in the translated English sentence, it's the hidden 私/私たち in the original sentence #2.

[KyleGoetz]

Thanks a ton!