Social Balance as a Gaijin

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

I am not "trying to fight you" I am just pointing out that the near 100% of Japanese you surveyed who said foreigners look strange in traditional dress was not a wide cross-section of Japanese society. I am guessing they were all under the age of 20. I am also guessing they themselves are not huge fans of traditional Japanese dress. My response wasn't subjective, just confirming my observation.

I wonder if you asked the question like this, to a wider range of ages what you would get?

"What do you think when you see a non-Japanese wearing a yukata at a summer festival?"

I don't know if you saw my post where I said the demographic was both university age students (generally 20-23) and older people (ranging in the 40s to early 50s) as to cross reference the current and past generation.

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

I don't know why you're trying to fight me with a subjective response like that.

You'll always be able to say "Well, I..." but just because you had a different experience doesn't mean every JAPANESE person that was asked questions is somehow the wrong ones and you're right.

I wouldn't think he was trying to fight you on your analysis just that the youth of Japan are becoming much less traditional. So if you are asking a group that already finds it weird/unappealing to wear a yukata of course they are going to think a foreigner wearing one when "I'm Japanese and I don't want to wear one" mentality exists.

One thing I found funny during my time in Japan...I really wanted clothing/hats that had a Japanese style to them but all I could find was Lakers or American surf company labels. When I asked my friend why I could not find any hats that were Japanese in style she said because it would be weird for Japanese to wear a Japanese styled hat...go figure.

So this is from the same demographics you selected and as MMM pointed out this same group would probably find a foreigner wearing a Onigashiyama hat weird because they are all wearing Long beach and Laker's gear.

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

One thing I found funny during my time in Japan...I really wanted clothing/hats that had a Japanese style to them but all I could find was Lakers or American surf company labels. When I asked my friend why I could not find any hats that were Japanese in style she said because it would be weird for Japanese to wear a Japanese styled hat...go figure.

That's simply their perception of style amongst themselves, and it's unavailability to anyone as such. They don't like something like traditional hats, therefore they're not produced, and ultimately not available as a souvenir to yourself. But it's not that the Japanese hats are something that they currently wear and would either object or embrace to a foreigner wearing them either way.

[MMM]

I think the issue is not only age, but more importantly context.

I don't know exactly how the question was asked, but if you said "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing?" then it wouldn't surprise me that you had a high % of "yes" answers, because in most situations it is odd for ANYONE to be wearing traditional Japanese clothing.

For example, if you said "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor?", invariably, the answer would be "yes" from most people, British or otherwise.

However, if the question became "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor at a Renaissance Fair?" then I think you would see a dramatic shift in the answers.

I think the same is probably true if you asked "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing at a summer festival?"... one of the only appropriate situations to wear yukata. You would find many more people saying "No, it's totally fine."

[WingsToDiscovery]

Originally Posted by MMM

I think the issue is not only age, but more importantly context.

I don't know exactly how the question was asked, but if you said "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing?" then it wouldn't surprise me that you had a high % of "yes" answers, because in most situations it is odd for ANYONE to be wearing traditional Japanese clothing.

For example, if you said "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor?", invariably, the answer would be "yes" from most people, British or otherwise.

However, if the question became "Do you think it would be odd for a non-Englishman to wear a suit of armor at a Renaissance Fair?" then I think you would see a dramatic shift in the answers.

I think the same is probably true if you asked "Do you think it is odd to see non-Japanese wearing traditional Japanese clothing at a summer festival?"... one of the only appropriate situations to wear yukata. You would find many more people saying "No, it's totally fine."

But once again, that's not what was asked.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

I find it funny that you use the term "fit in" how about being open minded or wanting to experience something other than you are use to. Guess we should all give strange looks at the Japanese that are eating In N' Out burgers wearing shorts and a T-shirt...shouldn't they be having sushi wearing traditional outfits.

I would be that guy wearing a yukata, why, because I am in Japan to experience a different culture, people, and life style. Should I avoid going to onsen's is that too extreme as well? There is a saying "when in Rome."

When in Japan I avoided areas like Roppongi or Azubu juban simply because they were a gaijin hot spots. Does this make me a weird person? I think not. I was in Japan to experience the people and the culture not to go sit at a British pub surrounded by other gaijin, just like I could be doing at home.

So people can think whatever they want of me, or feel embarrassed(as another poster stated) about my need to "fit in" but I will be enjoying myself and experiencing things I never would have.

I think Nyororin is referring to people who take the extreme of rejecting their own culture and trying to join Japanese culture- living in a fantasy land of being something that they are not. And the problem with that is this person will never be considered to be Japanese (by Japanese people), and probably does not have a genuine understanding behind all the things they are doing. It is one thing to want to come and experience things, and it is another to live in a delusional fantasy land (that many people who have idolized Japan seem to try to live in).

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

I think Nyororin is referring to people who take the extreme of rejecting their own culture and trying to join Japanese culture- living in a fantasy land of being something that they are not. And the problem with that is this person will never be considered to be Japanese (by Japanese people), and probably does not have a genuine understanding behind all the things they are doing. It is one thing to want to come and experience things, and it is another to live in a delusional fantasy land (that many people who have idolized Japan seem to try to live in).

I still do not get this close minded way of thinking? So your saying a Japanese person living in America will never know what it's like to be an American and will never be able to understand what it is because it's impossible for a foreigner to understand our ultra complex culture? As if it's some cosmic secret an American can never understand the Japanese culture?

You are making it sound like every foreigner who wants to live in Japan and be a part of its culture is some crazy person who see's Naruto and Nanoha around every corner. You postulate its unthinkable to reject ones own culture? As if their perception must be flawed to want to be anything other than what they have been given. Culture is no different a choice than anything else in life.

Japanese and many other nationalities flock to America or idolize America and want to come or be it...does this make them delusional no it's their perception. Think it's more of a grass is greener syndrome. Some Americans grow disenchanted with our culture as we see the truth of it and seek other cultures or countries that we perceive as better.

Myself for example I appreciated the respect for ones environment and fellow man I found in Japan. I find this to be lacking very much in America...simple example vending machines on the streets; they would never work here like they do in Japan...they would be broken into/grafiti'd up quickly.

Is it so strange that someone could find another culture more appealing than their own? How is this any different than Japan's fascination with all things American?

[GoNative]

I guess the point Rick is making is that regarless of how hard you try, regardless even if you become a Japanese citizen, you will never actually be considered Japanese by the Japanese. In places like Australia and I assume the US it's not unusual at all to see people of many different racial backgrounds and to consider them Australian or American without a second thought.
In Japan it's not like that. You could be born there, speak and read absolutely fluently, know the customs as well as any native but unless you look Japanese you will never be considered Japanese. You will always be a gaijin.

[bELyVIS]

Originally Posted by MMM

At the appropriate situations, I have never heard of hints or even rumors of Japanese thinking foreigners wearing Japanese traditional clothing as inappropriate or strange. If anything quite the opposite. I know people who would tell me exactly what thought about every other situation, so, again, I find this harder to believe with people over the age of 25 or so.

Japanese love it when foreigners wear traditional clothing, unless it is incorrectly worn. I saw them really get upset once when a young lady was wearing a kimono with the left side under the right signifying death.
Correctly worn the person will get sincere compliments.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

I find it funny that you use the term "fit in" how about being open minded or wanting to experience something other than you are use to. Guess we should all give strange looks at the Japanese that are eating In N' Out burgers wearing shorts and a T-shirt...shouldn't they be having sushi wearing traditional outfits.

[ ... ]

So people can think whatever they want of me, or feel embarrassed(as another poster stated) about my need to "fit in" but I will be enjoying myself and experiencing things I never would have.

You misinterpreted what I was saying.
I put quotes around the "fit in" because it wasn`t a serious meaning.

There are people who feel that they NEED to wear kimono and do traditional things in order to fit in. They feel that they need to do such things to be "more Japanese" - when, as you noted, the average Japanese doesn`t even do such things. For the people I was speaking of, it isn`t an experience. It isn`t for enjoyment. There are people who feel this is NECESSARY. They tend to feel that all Japanese SHOULD be wearing kimono and eating sushi, as you put it... And usually look down on anything western because it "is destroying Japanese culture".

If you did interpret me correctly, and the above describes you, well... Never mind then.

I still do not get this close minded way of thinking? So your saying a Japanese person living in America will never know what it's like to be an American and will never be able to understand what it is because it's impossible for a foreigner to understand our ultra complex culture? As if it's some cosmic secret an American can never understand the Japanese culture?

A Japanese person in America will never know what it is like to to be born and raised an American, just as a foreigner in Japan will never know what it is like to be born and raised Japanese. It is possible to know what is involved, and to know about every facet of life in Japan - but you cannot *know* the experience as you have not had it.
Understanding the culture is possible. Having the experience of having grown up in the culture is not something you can acquire.

You are making it sound like every foreigner who wants to live in Japan and be a part of its culture is some crazy person who see's Naruto and Nanoha around every corner. You postulate its unthinkable to reject ones own culture? As if their perception must be flawed to want to be anything other than what they have been given. Culture is no different a choice than anything else in life.

Being part of Japanese culture isn`t rejecting everything non-Japanese. I think this is the biggest problem. Rejecting everything that isn`t "really Japanese" isn`t going to get you far as Japan isn`t entirely "really Japanese" stuff. People don`t wear kimono everyday, and they don`t confine themselves to traditional foods and culture. To reject things that are "western" is to reject a huge part of Japan.