Social Balance as a Gaijin

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by GoNative

I guess the point Rick is making is that regarless of how hard you try, regardless even if you become a Japanese citizen, you will never actually be considered Japanese by the Japanese. In places like Australia and I assume the US it's not unusual at all to see people of many different racial backgrounds and to consider them Australian or American without a second thought.
In Japan it's not like that. You could be born there, speak and read absolutely fluently, know the customs as well as any native but unless you look Japanese you will never be considered Japanese. You will always be a gaijin.

Hmm no Rick seemed to be more focused on embracing the culture and if you do you are living in a delusional world.

I understand Japan is not the melting pot America is and is still much more close minded by its very isolated nature. Yes, a gaijin will never be truly Japanese as Japanese is more directly related to ethnic background then the nation in which you live.

American is not an ethnicity nor is Australian...we all came from some other place making us gaijin within our own home.

To say a gaijin should ignore/not embrace the customs of Japan because he will be considered weird/delusional is broken logic.

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

To say a gaijin should ignore/not embrace the customs of Japan because he will be considered weird/delusional is broken logic.

No one is saying this.

If everyone was walking around in kimono and we were saying that you shouldn`t wear one because you`re not Japanese, you would have a point. But they are not. Embracing customs is fine. Embracing traditional Japanese customs that even most modern Japanese do not follow is what will end with you being considered weird.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

Hmm no Rick seemed to be more focused on embracing the culture and if you do you are living in a delusional world.

I understand Japan is not the melting pot America is and is still much more close minded by its very isolated nature. Yes, a gaijin will never be truly Japanese as Japanese is more directly related to ethnic background then the nation in which you live.

American is not an ethnicity nor is Australian...we all came from some other place making us gaijin within our own home.

To say a gaijin should ignore/not embrace the customs of Japan because he will be considered weird/delusional is broken logic.

No, I was saying exactly what GoNative said. There is nothing wrong with embracing Japanese culture. I am talking about people who think they can actually become Japanese by trying as hard as they can to fit in, and this same person is usually the one who has issues with the culture they were brought up in.

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

And the opposite extreme - the people who feel that they need to wear a kimono and take traditional art classes to "fit in" are going to get raised eyebrows. You can behave "normally" - you don`t need to be one extreme or the other in this department.

Guess i misinterpreted this part? Why can't it be the people just like that part of the culture? What would normal be? I read this as don't wear a kimono your a gaijin, don't take traditional art classes...just be normal and do whatever you "gaijin" do...

The basis of this discussion was wearing a kimono/yukata in the appropriate situation, no one was discussing wearing a kimono at a rock concert. Taking a traditional art class to "fit in", so learning ikebana obviously is not "normal" and is extreme. Why on earth would a gaijin want to learn that.

Your statement taken at face value to me...reads these are Japanese things gaijins should just be gaijins. Whether this is true or false you provided little to go on. Other posters stated as well that a foreigner should not do these things cause they don't know the cutural significance behind them cause they are gaijin.

RickOshay
"I am talking about people who think they can actually become Japanese by trying as hard as they can to fit in"

I don't think anyone ever in this whole thread said someone thought that could actually "become" Japanese, merely to practice the Japanese culture appropriately. It seems the idea is you can embrace it, but don't try to live it, cause your not Japanese? Again since when is fitting in wrong? I guess I should just look in the mirror and say "I am an Irish American...I like potatoes and celebrate the 4th of July."

[Nyororin]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

Guess i misinterpreted this part? Why can't it be the people just like that part of the culture? What would normal be? I read this as don't wear a kimono your a gaijin, don't take traditional art classes...just be normal and do whatever you "gaijin" do...

You`re still not getting what is being said.

No one has said to never wear a kimono, or to never take traditional art classes (I don`t think that anyone has said anything negative against traditional arts at all, really.)
Normal is, well, what normal people in Japan do. Not some "whatever you gaijin do" sort of thing. Normal Japanese people do not go about wearing kimono, nor have they all mastered some traditional art. To have an interest in some traditional art and to study it is *fine*. It`s *normal* - people who have an interest take classes.

What is NOT normal is rejecting anything that is not traditional, and taking it beyond an interest. As I said, there are people who feel that it is necessary to fit in. Their interest isn`t in the traditional art, but in the fact that it is something, anything, Japanese and not western.
I have never made, nor seen anyone (Japanese or foreign) make negative comments about someone who has an honest interest in some traditional art - even if they dedicate their life to it. The opposite, in fact - they`re given respect regardless of background.
But there is a difference between those people and the kind who reject anything western and who think Japanese culture is in danger of disappearing.

It isn`t necessary to learn some traditional art in order to "fit in". It would be kind of like saying that someone couldn`t fit in, say, in the US unless they could recite the constitution. Normal people do not do that. If you`re a scholar who studies the constitution, that is one thing - but if you spout the joys of American life and quote the constitution or Declaration of Independence at every turn... People are going to give you weird looks. Even in a place with as much variety as the US.

Other posters stated as well that a foreigner should not do these things cause they don't know the cutural significance behind them cause they are gaijin.

This is something that I have not agreed with. I don`t think it`s impossible for a foreigner to understand cultural significance, etc etc. I initially agreed that, yes, you`re likely to be looked at as weird. I don`t recall telling anyone they shouldn`t go ahead and do it - but rather to be aware that it isn`t likely to make you seem more "Japanese". (Likely the opposite, in fact.) For those who think that the more traditional knowledge they pile on the more "Japanese" or accepted they will become, it can be a rude awakening.

Again since when is fitting in wrong?

When it is doing something that does the opposite of fitting in.

[RickOShay]

Originally Posted by Gahzirra

RickOshay
"I am talking about people who think they can actually become Japanese by trying as hard as they can to fit in"

I don't think anyone ever in this whole thread said someone thought that could actually "become" Japanese, merely to practice the Japanese culture appropriately. It seems the idea is you can embrace it, but don't try to live it, cause your not Japanese? Again since when is fitting in wrong? I guess I should just look in the mirror and say "I am an Irish American...I like potatoes and celebrate the 4th of July."

It is wrong (not wrong-silly) when you cannot do it. Lots of white people try to be black (American).. do you think there is a black person on the planet who would look at that white person and consider them to be black? What I am saying is Japanese people (no matter what you do or how hard you try) will never see you as Japanese. And honestly overdoing it I think kind of turns that person into an eyesore for most Japanese.

[Ryzorian]

Be yourself. They will like you or not like YOU, for who you are not what you try to be.

[Gahzirra]

Originally Posted by RickOShay

It is wrong (not wrong-silly) when you cannot do it. Lots of white people try to be black (American).. do you think there is a black person on the planet who would look at that white person and consider them to be black? What I am saying is Japanese people (no matter what you do or how hard you try) will never see you as Japanese. And honestly overdoing it I think kind of turns that person into an eyesore for most Japanese.

So your saying we should stick to the racial stereotype of our skin color and features? Got it

[MMM]

Originally Posted by WingsToDiscovery

But once again, that's not what was asked.

And that is the problem, is what I am saying.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

What is NOT normal is rejecting anything that is not traditional, and taking it beyond an interest. As I said, there are people who feel that it is necessary to fit in. Their interest isn`t in the traditional art, but in the fact that it is something, anything, Japanese and not western.

Exactly; it's quite one thing for me to be studying sumi-e- i've done art since I was tiny, i love it, and i'd just as happily do western-style watercolours. In fact, my sumi works often have a fairly obvious western slant with my subject matter and style. I do feel it brings me closer, however, to Japan and Japanese culture.

It would be completely bonkers for me to have, instead, looked at the course list, seen the sumi-e teacher was American and rejected it on the grounds that it wasn't properly 'Japanese', and gone and taken up... i don't know, karate and ikebana instead. I loathe sport, I suck at it, and I'm allergic to a lot of flower pollen. Yet some people totally DID do things like that. I met people doing sum-e, simply because it was so COOL and JAPANESE and traditional but boy did the actual worky-painting bit of it suck, huh?

It was painfully obvious to everyone but them why they sucked at it too; because they didn't really enjoy it. They liked talking about the fact they studied sumi-e much more than actually sitting in the studio studying it and working on their art. Comparing their lacklustre, 'traditional style' pieces with say, the couple of kids who really enjoyed painting but really done an art class, and there was a clear difference. You could just tell who'd sat for five minutes trying to make a classic masterpiece to back up their claims and who'd spent three hours going 'shglkah hahaha YAY! I DRAWED A WONKY FROG!'.