"White anti-feminist men in Japan"

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Haiiro

Hi all,
Seeing as I'm joining this discussion so late, my opinion is probably a moot point. However, reading through this thread did cause me to rethink a few things, so I thought I'd post if only to say these conversations are not in vain. It actually inspired me to write a letter to my sister, who enjoys a mix of both lifestyles as the "bread winner" and housewife at the same time.

So rather than rewriting my musings here, I'll just post a snippet of the email itself, with your kind indulgence... Yes, I'm lazy:P

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Out of the blue today, a forum post caught my eye, and the thread basically forced me to rethink my entire view on "feminism". It's rather naive, I know, but I generally stick to the intended or original meaning of a word, in a laughable attempt to preserve the integrity of the English language. When a word becomes too "loaded" with implied meaning (which actually changes from person to person) it becomes virtually worthless as a part of one's vocabulary. As a result I often find myself discarding vocabulary, and looking for "clean" terminology to express a concept without inviting misinterpretation (a seemingly hopeless endeavor).

Up until now, I have always thought of myself as a feminist. During its inception feminism was very idealistic, providing women the "option" to do whatever they wanted. Wonderful - so how can such a noble persuit end up becoming so twisted in the public perception? Feminism has become such a loaded word over time, that there is really no reason for anyone to use it anymore. To some, it carries the implication that women are superior to men, or that women who choose not to live a perceivably "feminist" lifestyle are somehow allowing themselves to be inferior to, or dominated by men. So essentially feminism, in it's current twisted state, does not necessarily represent the fight for equality and freedom of choice, so much as a new and significantly greater expectation from women. "Housewife" has become a demeaning term for a woman who simply chooses to stay at home, and care for her kids. Men who stay at home are mocked and ridiculed. What we end up with is both parents working their asses off (even when it's completely unnecessary from a financial perspective) to pay for someone else to take care of the kids, while never fully enjoying the "family life" they work so hard to support. It a pretty common scenario I think, (although do correct me if I'm wrong) and the result is less actual freedom than ever, as people strive to live up to new, and much more demanding social expectations. Social progress on this subject, as I see it, is the process of expanding options, without actually requiring a change of lifestyle.

I think you're probably the most likely person to understand where I'm coming from on this. I think I've developed a greater appreciation for just how controversial your chosen lifestyle actually is. On the one hand you have people like Twila (sp?) who frown on your capabilities as a businesswoman. And then on the other hand, you have people who would look down on you for staying at home. Well, as a famous diplomat once said (wish I could remember the name!), if both sides are pissed off with you then you're on the right track:P

So now I'm curious: how would you normally describe yourself? Are you a feminist or egalitarian?

After giving this a little thought, I can not, in good conscience, call myself a feminist. I'm now simply an egalitarian - one who believes in all-round equality between race, gender, sexual preference, or whatever.

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Well that's it. To clarify a couple of points... On her partner's side of the family, they actually *hate* the fact that she is so capable in business, believing that women should never handle finance. On the other side of the coin, some people in our own family believe that she's wasting her life staying at home, intelligent and capable as she is, and shouldn't have ever had more than 1 child (she has 4). Both views are complete BS - what we have here is a woman living a full and wonderful life by her own rules. That, to me, is what feminism used to represent, but now the term has become saturated with false meaning... Time to toss that one on the refuse heap and move on IMO.

Hmmm... Perhaps it's an American thing?

To be feminist here in New Zealand isn't so negatively loaded and to describe yourself as a feminist really depends on the context. I would normally describe myself as egalitarian in a neutral context, of course in the context of this thread where it seems to be feminist versus anti-feminist, common sense, a brief knowledge of the subject and access to a something called dictionary ( feminism definition |Dictionary.com ), puts me on the side of feminism and makes me a feminist.

The only guys that are really against such a movement here are the ones who think women should be kicked back into the kitchen.

[Haiiro]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

Hmmm... Perhaps it's an American thing?

To be feminist here in New Zealand isn't so negatively loaded and to describe yourself as a feminist really depends on the context. I would normally describe myself as egalitarian in a neutral context, of course in the context of this thread where it seems to be feminist versus anti-feminist, common sense, a brief knowledge of the subject and access to a something called dictionary ( feminism definition |Dictionary.com ), puts me on the side of feminism and makes me a feminist.

The only guys that are really against such a movement here are the ones who think women should be kicked back into the kitchen.

I would have to agree with you that it's probably more of a North American issue (I'm Canadian, just so you know).
I also agree with / support the dictionary definition of feminism 100%. Unfortunately a lot of people don't recognise it as accurate these days... We have a habbit of corrupting just about any term that's used politically with mere opinion.

[Wasabista]

Originally Posted by Ronin4hire

The only guys that are really against such a movement here are the ones who think women should be kicked back into the kitchen.

You're right, and that's part of the problem. "Opposed to feminism"? You mean, you want to keep women in the kitchen?

The problem is that feminism's STATED aims do not match its REAL aims, if you look at what they've actually done. And I'm talking about the opinion leaders, the ones who actually get things done.So the dictionary definition is useless if you're interested in describing the world as it really is.

If feminism is really an egalitarian movement why hasn't it advocated the following?
1. More resources for boys' education. Girls have been outperforming boys in education for 30 years.
2. A public awareness campaign to erase the widely held view that domestic violence is a MALE crime, as I explained above.
3. Extending the draft to women. ("I don't like the draft at all" is an excuse -- should the draft not have been used in WW2?)
4. Encouraging women to take dangerous jobs. Firefighters, beat cops, miners, garbage collectors and long-haul truckers are overwhelmingly men.
5. Eliminating the Duluth procedures, which deal with domestic disputes based on the assumption that the man is the culprit.
6. Elimination of hiring quotas for women in academia and the civil service.
7. Increasing the amount of money spent on prostate cancer research to match the sums spent on breast cancer research.

These are all things that an egalitarian movement should be busy doing. Do you know of feminists advocating these things? How much time have YOU spent advocating them? Only "dissident feminists," far from the mainstream, are arguing these points. These are the same feminists that are actively excluded from public dialogue.

[ivi0nk3y]

Originally Posted by Wasabista

You're right, and that's part of the problem. "Opposed to feminism"? You mean, you want to keep women in the kitchen?

The problem is that feminism's STATED aims do not match its REAL aims, if you look at what they've actually done. And I'm talking about the opinion leaders, the ones who actually get things done.So the dictionary definition is useless if you're interested in describing the world as it really is.

If feminism is really an egalitarian movement why hasn't it advocated the following?
1. More resources for boys' education. Girls have been outperforming boys in education for 30 years.
2. A public awareness campaign to erase the widely held view that domestic violence is a MALE crime, as I explained above.
3. Extending the draft to women. ("I don't like the draft at all" is an excuse -- should the draft not have been used in WW2?)
4. Encouraging women to take dangerous jobs. Firefighters, beat cops, miners, garbage collectors and long-haul truckers are overwhelmingly men.
5. Eliminating the Duluth procedures, which deal with domestic disputes based on the assumption that the man is the culprit.
6. Elimination of hiring quotas for women in academia and the civil service.
7. Increasing the amount of money spent on prostate cancer research to match the sums spent on breast cancer research.

These are all things that an egalitarian movement should be busy doing. Do you know of feminists advocating these things? How much time have YOU spent advocating them? Only "dissident feminists," far from the mainstream, are arguing these points. These are the same feminists that are actively excluded from public dialogue.

When people talk about Feminists, they're talking about women who go as far as to wage war against men in every way possible. This could be from never having a family and turning to Lesbianism to having abortions just for the sake of it. What's funny is that to do that, they are in essence becoming more like Males, which is a great Paradox from my perspective.
So no, people against Feminism aren't at all for sending women back to the kitchen. Not the extreme bullshit Feminism i'm talking about anyway.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Wasabista

You're right, and that's part of the problem. "Opposed to feminism"? You mean, you want to keep women in the kitchen?

The problem is that feminism's STATED aims do not match its REAL aims, if you look at what they've actually done. And I'm talking about the opinion leaders, the ones who actually get things done.So the dictionary definition is useless if you're interested in describing the world as it really is.

If feminism is really an egalitarian movement why hasn't it advocated the following?
1. More resources for boys' education. Girls have been outperforming boys in education for 30 years.
2. A public awareness campaign to erase the widely held view that domestic violence is a MALE crime, as I explained above.
3. Extending the draft to women. ("I don't like the draft at all" is an excuse -- should the draft not have been used in WW2?)
4. Encouraging women to take dangerous jobs. Firefighters, beat cops, miners, garbage collectors and long-haul truckers are overwhelmingly men.
5. Eliminating the Duluth procedures, which deal with domestic disputes based on the assumption that the man is the culprit.
6. Elimination of hiring quotas for women in academia and the civil service.
7. Increasing the amount of money spent on prostate cancer research to match the sums spent on breast cancer research.

These are all things that an egalitarian movement should be busy doing. Do you know of feminists advocating these things? How much time have YOU spent advocating them? Only "dissident feminists," far from the mainstream, are arguing these points. These are the same feminists that are actively excluded from public dialogue.

Wait... you mean the only one that seems to know these REAL aims is you? Yeah right.

I really can't debate you on this topic as you seem to be giving me examples that are American of which I really haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. What I am sure of is that there are two sides to the story and you're giving me only one side expecting me to prop up the other when I'm completely oblivious to American societies domestic issues.

Feminist discussion here in New Zealand is pretty low key to be honest. The only time people are described as feminists or having a feminist position are when issues regarding gender imbalance within society are addressed. In such situations, opposing ideas aren't seen to be attacking feminism rather addressing feminist concerns (See the difference in mindset here? You can disagree with a feminist position without being "anti-feminist" if you reconcile it with the higher feminist purpose given in the dictionary.) Issues such as the pay disparity between men and women, the problem of male on female domestic violence are recent issues which spring to mind. However despite it's low key presence here in NZ, in my opinion the feminist movement here (among my peers anyway) is recognised as the reason why men and women today enjoy the relative equality they do in our society and for that reason I feel that terms like "feminism" and "feminist" haven't become the dirty words they have become in America (like say social responsibility)

[Wasabista]

No, Ronin, I supported my views with an avalanche of facts. Feel free to point out where I'm mistaken if you like. Be specific.

I'm not sure what you want me to do. You said I was spouting suppositions, unsupported with facts. I gave you a truckload of facts and you haven't changed your tune.

And if you insist on doggedly maintaining that things are different in NZ, feel free to ask yourself the series of specific questions I posted to determine whether what you say is true.

I realize it's a lot to digest all at once.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Wasabista

No, Ronin, I supported my views with an avalanche of facts. Feel free to point out where I'm mistaken if you like. Be specific.

I'm not sure what you want me to do. You said I was spouting suppositions, unsupported with facts. I gave you a truckload of facts and you haven't changed your tune.

And if you insist on doggedly maintaining that things are different in NZ, feel free to ask yourself the series of specific questions I posted to determine whether what you say is true.

I realize it's a lot to digest all at once.

It doesn't matter what your facts are. Your views are fundamentally flawed because you're attempting to redefine textbook and dictionary definitions. How many times do I have to say this.

I'm not about to take a side I know nothing about but let me assure you that this position you're against is not a "feminist" one no matter how you try and sell it.

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by ivi0nk3y

When people talk about Feminists, they're talking about women who go as far as to wage war against men in every way possible. This could be from never having a family and turning to Lesbianism to having abortions just for the sake of it. What's funny is that to do that, they are in essence becoming more like Males, which is a great Paradox from my perspective.
So no, people against Feminism aren't at all for sending women back to the kitchen. Not the extreme bullshit Feminism i'm talking about anyway.

I don't want to hear you get upset about people pigeon holing Islam if that's your position on feminism.

If I were to parallel Wasabistas position, when people talk about Muslims being backward and violent they really mean extremists.

If Wasabista can be taken seriously in a discussion in which he attempts to redefine or define a term then so can those that use Muslim when they mean terrorist.

[TalnSG]

Originally Posted by quixote73

steve_s: White anti-feminist men in Japan
It's quite provocative and certainly should generate some interesting discussion!

Indeed it is thought provoking and (IMHO) well stated without getting too emotional. I appreciated discovering a shorter, clearer term for the sort I have encountered on more than one occasion - the dreaded LBH. Most American LBH seem to be fond of moving to countries where a male dominant society has kept more of the macho traditions than wherever they came from. Fortunately for me, I have only encountered this type while on vacationing and I have been able to avoid them. And the LBH has a cousin of sorts - the OTBH (Only Tolerated Back Home). This is my term for those who are not really losers back home because of either their wealth or family position, but would be if people dared treat them the way they deserve. These I have had the displeasure of encountering both in social and business circles.

However these two condemnations are not exclusively male, though they predominate because as the blog pointed out only 4% of at least the governmental power base is female, and the business sector is only slightly better. Most of the female LBH can't afford to relocate.

(The Resident Feminist, but not Misandrist )

[pumpum]

Originally Posted by Nyororin

Didn`t read the original blog post - I`m not going to waste my time.

But I will pipe in and said that I`m an anti-feminist female in Japan.
I`m an egalitarian.

Equality is, well, different but equal. Feminism ends up meaning "Equal in status, but better in every way than those nasty men!" Feminism calls for all the benefits of equal status, but with special allowances and bonuses because you`re female.

It`s misandry, plain and simple.

I agree - its poison !

I do like Lesbians though !