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Supperman 05-21-2011 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darnellrbts (Post 865699)
:ywave: Hey guys im still on Genki leson 3 im learning ませんか。I just want to make sure im not messing up grammer wise so i have a couple sentences.

1)けんいちさんはあしたとしょかんにいきませんか。
2)けんいちさんはきょうテニスをしませんか。

Hi.
I think
1)けんいちさん、あしたとしょかんにいきませんか。
2)けんいちさん、きょうテニスをしませんか。
might be a little better.

KyleGoetz 05-21-2011 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 865693)
After some research, I am leaning towards the idea that the two kanji would be identical. The one using 半 appears to be the newer form of the other. If this were important, however, which it seems to be, I would consult an educated Chinese native speaker.

Thanks. Some American guys on a Chinese forum kept insisting that I was confused and the '` are flipped vertically, so maybe they are historical variants of each other or something.

My in-laws are from Taiwan and one is a former government official. Maybe they will know.

Peace, and back to your regularly scheduled Japanese help! :)

Edit: They are the same character. I found a dictionary online that does have the character, and it interchangeably uses the two. It's just a font difference.

Asakusa 05-21-2011 09:29 PM

Quote:

Is anyone familiar with a kanji that looks like 胖 except that the right half is 半 instead?
I must admit that I don't understand the question, but in Chinese this is pronounced páng and you can find Japanese pronounciations and further info on p.820 of the 角川新字源 Amazon.co.jp, at your level of expertise you should get that if you don't have it already.

一 1かたみ(半身) いけにえの半身の肉。2あばら肉� ��

二 ゆたか。やすらか。のびやか。

I'm puzzled in respect to your question, still: why *but* the right half is like that? To me both of those- the right half and the subsequent character- look exactly the same (i.e. 半) whereby it is IMO irrelevant whether the 'first' two strokes are in- or e- verted. My Japanese (and English!) is rusty and I'm a bit drunk so sorry if I misunderstood...

edit: I see that you have already partly solved that, anyway...

KyleGoetz 05-21-2011 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asakusa (Post 865731)
I must admit that I don't understand the question, but in Chinese this is pronounced páng and you can find Japanese pronounciations and further info on p.820 of the 角川新字源 Amazon.co.jp, at your level of expertise you should get that if you don't have it already.

一 1かたみ(半身) いけにえの半身の肉。2あばら肉� ��

二 ゆたか。やすらか。のびやか。

I'm puzzled in respect to your question, still: why *but* the right half is like that? To me both of those- the right half and the subsequent character- look exactly the same (i.e. 半) whereby it is IMO irrelevant whether the 'first' two strokes are in- or e- verted. My Japanese (and English!) is rusty and I'm a bit drunk so sorry if I misunderstood...

edit: I see that you have already partly solved that, anyway...

Yeah, I had no idea that, historically, the inversion or non-inversion of the ソ/ハ pair of strokes were equivalent and up to the writer's style.

And it's a font issue. On my computer, the right half is different from the thing I scanned.

And thanks for the link to the book. I don't have it, and I should get it. I haven't imported a book in a long time, and when I lived in Japan I was nowhere near the kanji level I am at now.

Asakusa 05-21-2011 10:10 PM

Quote:

I haven't imported a book in a long time, and when I lived in Japan I was nowhere near the kanji level I am at now.
Me neither, I had brought that back with me to Europe from Japan more than ten years ago. Now with the internet we don't have so much probs getting a hold of some Japanese reading material, eh? ;) Maybe you can also get it from some U.S. site, I dunno...

Darnellrbts 05-23-2011 11:40 PM

:ywave: Hey guys it's me again a new week with more questions.. I'm doing a little review on what I learned so far by using my vocab flashcards, and forming sentences. 
I'm trying to invite someone to the movies. Can I write the sentence like this or do I need to put けんいちさんは
1)けんいちさん、こんばんえいがをみませんか。
こんばん、ちょっと。
2)たけしさんはたいていやさいをたべますね。( can I still put ね at the end to say, Takeshi usually eats vegetables right?)
3)まいにちほんゃでほんをよみます。( trying to form sentences without わたし)

Realism 05-24-2011 01:11 AM

YouTube - ‪デブゴン4 ピックポケット その3‬‏

What in the heck is the guy saying at 4:28??

それで何か、 xxxxxxしたいか。

Maxful 05-24-2011 02:09 AM

Hi, if I want to say "I will take a 3 hours break", should I say "三時間休む" or "三時間休憩" and what is the different between "休む" and "休憩"?


I would also like to know if I could omit "間" from the following sentences?

1. 一年間仕事を休む

2. 三日間仕事を休む

KyleGoetz 05-24-2011 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866015)
Hi, if I want to say "I will take a 3 hours break", should I say "三時間休む" or "三時間休憩" and what is the different between "休む" and "休憩"?


I would also like to know if I could omit "間" from the following sentences?

1. 一年間仕事を休む

2. 三日間仕事を休む

I think 休む is the "normal" word, with 休憩 being the "higher level" verb. Like "rest" versus "respite." One is the native Japanese word, and one sounds like a Chinese loan word, which indicates a more "literary" sense. Like "respite" versus "break."

As for #1, I don't know, but my inclination is "no."

As for #2, without 間 I think it means "On the 3rd of the month, I [will] take off from work." With 間 it means "three days" of time off.

masaegu 05-24-2011 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realism (Post 866013)
YouTube - ‪デブゴン4 ピックポケット その3‬‏

What in the heck is the guy saying at 4:28??

それで何か、 xxxxxxしたいか。

He says 「それでなにか?弟子入りでもしたいか?」.

弟子入り = でしいり

masaegu 05-24-2011 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darnellrbts (Post 865999)
:ywave: Hey guys it's me again a new week with more questions.. I'm doing a little review on what I learned so far by using my vocab flashcards, and forming sentences.
I'm trying to invite someone to the movies. Can I write the sentence like this or do I need to put けんいちさんは
1)けんいちさん、こんばんえいがをみませんか。
こんばん、ちょっと。
2)たけしさんはたいていやさいをたべますね。( can I still put ね at the end to say, Takeshi usually eats vegetables right?)
3)まいにちほんゃでほんをよみます。( trying to form sentences without わたし)

「こんばん、ちょっと。」  
Is this supposed to be a line by Kenichi refusing politely? If so, you need to say 「こんばんちょっと。」. This is not the greeting こんばんは, but it is こんばん(tonight) + subject marker は = As for tonight, (I couldn't go).

2) reads fine.

To add a subject in 3), just place わたしは up front.

ほんゃ > ほんや with the full-size や.

The rest looks good.

Realism 05-24-2011 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 866023)
He says 「それでなにか?弟子入りでもしたいか?」.

弟子入り = でしいり

Thanks a lot....when you write it out I know exactly what it means.

But man when they say it it sounds so different. Just gotta get use to their pronounciations and speech.

masaegu 05-24-2011 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realism (Post 866027)
Thanks a lot....when you write it out I know exactly what it means.

But man when they say it it sounds so different. Just gotta get use to their pronounciations and speech.

I would agree.

BTW, you are aware that this なにか is different from なにか as in なにか食べたい, right? There is a big difference in the pitch accent between the two meanings.

Maxful 05-24-2011 06:33 AM

Thanks for the help, KyleGoetz.

masaegu 05-24-2011 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866015)
Hi, if I want to say "I will take a 3 hours break", should I say "三時間休む" or "三時間休憩" and what is the different between "休む" and "休憩"?

I would also like to know if I could omit "間" from the following sentences?

1. 一年間仕事を休む
2. 三日間仕事を休む

Yes, you could.

masaegu 05-24-2011 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 866020)
As for #1, I don't know, but my inclination is "no."

It's a yes though it is true that it sounds a little better using the 間.

Quote:

As for #2, without 間 I think it means "On the 3rd of the month, I [will] take off from work." With 間 it means "three days" of time off.
On the 3rd of the month = 3日に、3日は、3日の日に(or は)

With or without 間, the phrase means "a period of three days".

KyleGoetz 05-24-2011 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 866029)
I would agree.

BTW, you are aware that this なにか is different from なにか as in なにか食べたい, right? There is a big difference in the pitch accent between the two meanings.

Is the first a falling accent pitch and the second a rising?

masaegu 05-24-2011 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleGoetz (Post 866056)
Is the first a falling accent pitch and the second a rising?

Precisely.

The second meaning, which is what the phrase is used for in that video, is treated as a question all by itself. It says "Is this what you are going to say?" You say 「なにか?」 first and then follow it by what you think it is that the other person would want to say.

Maxful 05-24-2011 11:10 AM

Thanks for the explanation, masaegu.

Maxful 05-25-2011 04:59 AM

Hi, I would like to know what exactly is the difference between "時間" and "時" as "time"?

高島屋で時を過ごす。

高島屋で時間を過ごす。



And also, when asking someone "What are you doing", should I say "何をしますか" or "何をしっていますか"?

masaegu 05-25-2011 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866134)
Hi, I would like to know what exactly is the difference between "時間" and "時" as "time"?
高島屋で時を過ごす。
高島屋で時間を過ごす。

I do not think anyone would say the first sentence. It sounds too self-important and even funny. 時 is a much bigger word than 時間.

Quote:

And also, when asking someone "What are you doing", should I say "何をしますか" or "何をしっていますか"?
Neither.

We say 「何をしているのですか。」 or, more colloquially 「何をしているんですか。」.

Both your sentences mean something very different than "What are you doing?".
何をしますか = What are you (or we) going to do? (future)
何をしっていますか = What do you know?

Maxful 05-25-2011 05:29 AM

Thanks, masaegu. Do you mind giving me a few examples between the differences of "時間" and "時" so I will get a better understanding of the usages.

masaegu 05-25-2011 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866137)
Thanks, masaegu. Do you mind giving me a few examples between the differences of "時間" and "時" so I will get a better understanding of the usages.

時間:
「高島屋へ行きたいが、その時間がない。明日にしよう 。」
「東京から大阪まで行くには何時間かかりますか。」
「昨日は5時間くらいゲームをしてしまった。」
「時間のある時に来てくれればフランス語を教えてあげ る。」
「時間にルーズな人はきらわれる。」

時:
「時は金なり。」 = A proverb.
「時の終わりまで、わたしはマサさんを愛し続けます。 」
「時に身をまかせなさい。」
「時の人」、「時の大統領」
「あの戦争から100年の時が流れた。」

Maxful 05-25-2011 06:02 AM

By the way, am I right that "どうしますか" and "どうするの" stand for "What would you do?"? If that is the case, how different are "どうしますか/どうするの" from "何をしますか"?

masaegu 05-25-2011 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866140)
By the way, am I right that "どうしますか" and "どうするの" stand for "What would you do?"? If that is the case, how different are "どうしますか/どうするの" from "何をしますか"?

This is a good question because there seems to be a big confusion among many Japanese-learners regarding this.  

「どうしますか/どうするの/どうしよう。」
These phrases are used ONLY as a reaction to something that has just occured unexpectedly.

Examples:
Guy A: "Damn! I lost my wallet!"
Guy B: どうしよう/どうしようか/どうする?

Gal A: "Masaegu is asking me out. どうしよう・・・"
Gal B: "どうするの?"

「何をしますか。」
This is used to ask what someone is planning or scheduled to do.

Maxful 05-25-2011 07:05 AM

I assume I could say "日曜日には何をしますか。(What are you going to do on Sunday?)"?

masaegu 05-25-2011 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866150)
I assume I could say "日曜日には何をしますか。(What are you going to do on Sunday?)"?

That is correct.

Maxful 05-25-2011 07:36 AM

Thanks for the detailed explanation, masaegu.

delacroix01 05-26-2011 08:49 AM

Hello! Can someone help me again with some words?

http://i.imgur.com/jIMhz.jpg
1. What is the word after 思わず? It looks like くらり to my eyes, but I can't find any word like that in dictionaries. :confused: The font isn't very clear, so I may have read the kana incorrectly.

2. Is the second Kanji 倒?

Supperman 05-26-2011 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delacroix01 (Post 866259)
Hello! Can someone help me again with some words?

http://i.imgur.com/jIMhz.jpg
1. What is the word after 思わず? It looks like くらり to my eyes, but I can't find any word like that in dictionaries. :confused: The font isn't very clear, so I may have read the kana incorrectly.

2. Is the second Kanji 倒?

思わずくらりと倒れそうになりました。
おもわず くらりと たおれそうに なりました。

おもわず=unexpectedly
くらりとする、くらっとする=feel dizzy

Unexpectedly, I felt dizzy and almost fell down.

delacroix01 05-26-2011 12:13 PM

Thanks for the great help Supperman :D

There's one more question I'd like to add.

確かに些細なことにも気を配らないとな。皆が皆、香織 理さんのときのように上手くいくとは限らないのだから 。
I have checked the dictionary entry for 皆が皆, but I'm still not very sure about its meaning here. Is it used for emphasizing what the speaker said in the previous sentence, and the implication would be like "I have to pay attention to everything, and there's no exception"?

StonerPenguin 05-27-2011 02:06 AM

Hello everybody, I've come across the 「~がる」 structure for the first time so I need a little help please. The dictionary defines the 「~がる」 structure as
Quote:

1.) to feel (on adj-stem to represent a third party's apparent emotion)
2.) to behave as if one were
The sentence I read was 「だが・・・ひとつ分からないことがある。 お前がうちの社員になりたがる理由だ」. There's only two people talking to each other so I don't think there's a "third party" :confused: Does it mean "But... there's one thing I don't understand. Because you're acting like you want to be(come) my employee."
Is that right? Sorry, I'm not confident because of my lack of experience with 「~がる」. :o

masaegu 05-27-2011 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StonerPenguin (Post 866341)
Hello everybody, I've come across the 「~がる」 structure for the first time so I need a little help please. The dictionary defines the 「~がる」 structure as

The sentence I read was 「だが・・・ひとつ分からないことがある。 お前がうちの社員になりたがる理由だ」. There's only two people talking to each other so I don't think there's a "third party" :confused: Does it mean "But... there's one thing I don't understand. Because you're acting like you want to be(come) my employee."
Is that right? Sorry, I'm not confident because of my lack of experience with 「~がる」. :o

Though I am on vacation, it is hard to resist answering a good question. The first definition your dictionary gives is okay but not perfect. It should include the second party as well as the third.

Read these three sentences. I will use pronouns to illustrate my point better.
私は家に帰りたい。
あなたは家に帰りたがっている。
林さんは家に帰りたがっている。

Hayashi wants to go home but you are not the one who is directly feeling that way. Hayashi may have even told you he wanted to go home but you still are an outsider to that desire/feeling. This is how がる is used with the 2nd and 3rd persons.

The same goes for adjectives. You can feel さみしい but others only feel さみしがっている if you are the one talking about it.

You translated 「お前がうちの社員になりたがる理由だ。」 incorrectly. It means "It is the reason that you want to become our employee." The hidden subject here is それは.
それ = ひとつ = the one thing the speaker does not understand, which is said in the preceding sentence.

Supperman 05-27-2011 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delacroix01 (Post 866267)
皆が皆、香織理さんのときのように上手くいくとは限ら ないのだから。

「皆が皆、(香織理さんのときのように)
上手くいくとは限らない」......のだから。

皆が皆、うまくいくとは限らない。
=皆が(all members) 皆(all together),うまくいくとは限らない。
All members might not be going to be successful together.
All members might not be going to be successful, not all together.

In Saori's case, it happened to be successful, fortunately.
But the luck would not be expected to all members.

StonerPenguin 05-27-2011 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 866344)
Though I am on vacation, it is hard to resist answering a good question. The first definition your dictionary gives is okay but not perfect. It should include the second party as well as the third.

Read these three sentences. I will use pronouns to illustrate my point better.
私は家に帰りたい。
あなたは家に帰りたがっている。
林さんは家に帰りたがっている。

Hayashi wants to go home but you are not the one who is directly feeling that way. Hayashi may have even told you he wanted to go home but you still are an outsider to that desire/feeling. This is how がる is used with the 2nd and 3rd persons.

The same goes for adjectives. You can feel さみしい but others only feel さみしがっている if you are the one talking about it.

You translated 「お前がうちの社員になりたがる理由だ。」 incorrectly. It means "It is the reason that you want to become our employee." The hidden subject here is それは.
それ = ひとつ = the one thing the speaker does not understand, which is said in the preceding sentence.

Wow, that's not what I thought it meant at all based on what the dictionary said. Very interesting! I guess this form conveys how one make others feel by the way one is feeling. I hope to get more practice with がる. Thanks a ton for the well-written explanation, especially considering you're on vacation. :rheart:

BTW I meant to thank you for the 「おはようございます」 thread but since school's out I've been spending a lot of time over at my parents' farm which doesn't have an internet connection. And this forum moves too fast :P

Anywho, thanks and have a good vacation!

delacroix01 05-27-2011 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supperman (Post 866347)
「皆が皆、(香織理さんのときのように)
上手くいくとは限らない」......のだから。

皆が皆、うまくいくとは限らない。
=皆が(all members) 皆(all together),うまくいくとは限らない。
All members might not be going to be successful together.
All members might not be going to be successful, not all together.

In Saori's case, it happened to be successful, fortunately.
But the luck would not be expected to all members.

Thanks again for the explanation. I figured out what it means in the context now. :)

Maxful 05-27-2011 11:20 PM

Hi, could someone check if my translations are correct and help me out with the ones I fail to answer?

Also, please bear with me for asking the same question again (I just want to be sure of it before I jot them down into my notebook) regarding the difference between 時間 and 時 as "time". I understand that the latter is somewhat formal than the former, but is there anymore in it?



時間:

「高島屋へ行きたいが、その時間がない。明日にしよう 。」
I want to go to Takashimaya but I do not have time. I will do it tomorrow/I will go tomorrow.

「東京から大阪まで行くには何時間かかりますか。」
How many hours does it take to travel from Tokyo to Osaka?

「昨日は5時間くらいゲームをしてしまった。」
Yesterday, I played Tv games for about 5 hours.

「時間のある時に来てくれればフランス語を教えてあげ る。」
If you come and see me when you have free time, i will teach you French.

「時間にルーズな人はきらわれる。」



時:

「時は金なり。」 = A proverb.
Time is money

「時の終わりまで、わたしはマサさんを愛し続けます。 」
I will carry on loving Masa till the end of time.

「時に身をまかせなさい。」

「時の人」、「時の大統領」
"man of the time/hour" "president of the time/hour"

「あの戦争から100年の時が流れた。」
100 years have passed since that war.

Maxful 05-27-2011 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masaegu (Post 866344)
Read these three sentences. I will use pronouns to illustrate my point better.
私は家に帰りたい。
あなたは家に帰りたがっている。
林さんは家に帰りたがっている。

Hayashi wants to go home but you are not the one who is directly feeling that way. Hayashi may have even told you he wanted to go home but you still are an outsider to that desire/feeling. This is how がる is used with the 2nd and 3rd persons.

The same goes for adjectives. You can feel さみしい but others only feel さみしがっている if you are the one talking about it.


Hi, I am very curious to know if the word "~がる" which StonerPenguin was talking about act as a supporting word for a verb just like "しまう"?


携帯電話をなくしてしまった。

やっと宿題を終わってしまった。

masaegu 05-28-2011 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866420)
Hi, could someone check if my translations are correct and help me out with the ones I fail to answer?

時間:
「高島屋へ行きたいが、その時間がない。明日にしよう 。」
I want to go to Takashimaya but I do not have time. I will do it tomorrow/I will go tomorrow.
Perfect.

「東京から大阪まで行くには何時間かかりますか。」
How many hours does it take to travel from Tokyo to Osaka?
Excellent.

「昨日は5時間くらいゲームをしてしまった。」
Yesterday, I played Tv games for about 5 hours.
Correct. Just want to make sure you understand the nuance, which is the speaker's sense of regret about playing too long.

「時間のある時に来てくれればフランス語を教えてあげ る。」
If you come and see me when you have free time, i will teach you French.
Exactly.

「時間にルーズな人はきらわれる。」
Those who are not punctual are not well-liked.

時:
「時は金なり。」 = A proverb.
Time is money
Correct.

「時の終わりまで、わたしはマサさんを愛し続けます。 」
I will carry on loving Masa till the end of time.
Exactly, though no one has yet told me that.

「時に身をまかせなさい。」
Entrust yourself to the flow of time.

「時の人」、「時の大統領」
"man of the time/hour" "president of the time/hour"
Precisely.

「あの戦争から100年の時が流れた。」
100 years have passed since that war.
Perfect.

Quote:

Also, please bear with me for asking the same question again (I just want to be sure of it before I jot them down into my notebook) regarding the difference between 時間 and 時 as "time". I understand that the latter is somewhat formal than the former, but is there anymore in it?
This is not very easy because the almost opposite "rule" regarding the relationships between originally-Japanese words and loan words from Chinese is at work here. As you know, for most pairs of Yamato-kotoba and their synonymous Chinese-origin counterparts, the latter is higher, more formal and technical. With 時 and 時間, however, it is by and large just the opposite.

With "everyday" types of time, we tend to use 時間. When we discuss "non-everyday" kind of time in philosophical or poetic manners, we tend to prefer 時. I had tried to convey this difference in my example sentences above.

masaegu 05-28-2011 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxful (Post 866421)
Hi, I am very curious to know if the word "~がる" which StonerPenguin was talking about act as a supporting word for a verb just like "しまう"?

携帯電話をなくしてしまった。

やっと宿題を終わってしまった。

No, it does not. (た)がる is used to express the wants, needs and other feelings of other people besides yourself.

In English, it is natural to say both:
"I want a new car." and "The Johnsons want a new car."
The verb does not change.

In Japanese, you cannot say 「ジョンソン夫妻は新しい車が欲しい。」.
You must say 「ジョンソン夫妻は新しい車を欲しがっている。」.
The verb changes forms.

携帯電話をなくしてしまった。 is a good sentence though there is no がる in it. It is impossible to place がる in it.

やっと宿題を終わってしまった。 is an incorrect and strange sentence. It is correct if you replace the を by が and drop やっと but it would mean that you wish you had more homework to do. You are regretting the fact that you are done with your homework! This is what  ~~てしまった implies.


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