Should the U.S. forces leave Japan?

[koitaguchi]

Hi,

Yes.Its true.The US Forces in Japan are not enough to stop a war once it starts.But,China and North Korea knows we got nukes either ground based via bombers,subs or warships on Japanese soil or nearby waters.Our presence in Japan is enough of a deterrent.Those commie bastards know we will protect Japan.Besides the bases in Japan is a strategic importance in the Pacific Ocean.Also,if we pull out of Japan,China and North Korea will not stand for Japan to build a stock pile of nukes as a deterrent for Japan to keep those commies at bay.They will invade Japan if this happens.

Regards,

Koi

[Joly]

One thought here, before I bow out (don't like how people argue on here:P).

Tenchu, I actually agree with you on your opinions of human nature: it's the same and it's bad. I also agree that no country lasts forever, and the U.S. is no exception. But do those facts entitle us to sit on our hands while others make the most of their nature and do horrible things? Does it mean we should just lie down with paper bags over our heads and wait for the world to end?

I don't think so.

Human nature can be effectively restrained to a point, by good government. You're really making me think you don't believe in human rights, or something--in the name of preserving innocents, you seem content with the idea of oppressive governments and bloodthirsty tyrants taking over however much of the world they please--and those types don't build daycares. War is horrible. It's full of all sorts of evils. But there are times when you do have a choice to choose the lesser of two evils, and effectively work to bring good out of it.

As for the actual topic...yes, I think if China and North Korea become a real threat, Japan will need a military. Hopefully we won't find it turned on us again.:P I don't really see the point of our military bases in Japan, except I imagine they are useful for monitoring N.K. since they are pretty close. If they also help to cement the friendship of Japan and the U.S., they are not a bad idea...but that doesn't often seem to be the case.

[koitaguchi]

Don't get me wrong.Japan is not just a bunch of punks.The Japanese Prime Minister said once that they just need a long weekend to counter the North Korean threats the last time NK test fired their missile.Some Defense Analysts speculate that Japan has ballistic missiles that can be quickly assembled in kit form much like the homes in Japan.The missiles can be also easily tipped with nuke warheads.Japan has a big stockpile of weapons grade nuclear material.Highly doubt its all for their nuclear reactors.

regards,

Koi

[Amnell]

Depleted uranium is not used in bullets -_- . If it were, the grunts wouldn't be able to carry their ammo. Depleted uranium--which puts out about as much radiation as your average TV set--is used in tank shells, artillery rounds, aircraft cannons, and some indirect fire munitions. Most explosives, unless they're fragmentation based, do not use depleted uranium, which rules out most 500-2,000lb bombs and missiles. Fragmentation based, of course, is sort of like your average grenade, designed to use shrapnel rather than explosive force to kill. However, you will not find depleted uranium in the NATO 5.56x.22 bullet.

Well, looks like you did it, Tenchu. You proved that America is an evil dicatatorship bent on the destruction of anyone without a US-SSN by whatever inhumane means possible.

I'm not going to try to defend Fallujah. The fact that no one here talked about it (not even the super-left news whores) beyond that "something" happened there irritates me to no end, so I'd only be fighting with myself :P .

Still, you can back through the last few pages of this thread, read all of my posts, and not find one place where I said that we conduct wars perfectly or that we can shit right on a fan and still not make a mess. My point has always been that you and a few others on this forum way play up every little detail and try to demonize my country.

Fallujah was excessive. Okay. Does that make my country, the grunts in its military, or anyone in my country evil? Does it make our leadership any worse than that of any other country with a history of making war? For fuck sake, you can't take an incident like Fallujah and claim that it means anything! Other than that a group of people responsible for planning didn't think for long enough or didn't have a conscience....

War is nasty business. A lot of shit happens. People fuck up. People die. Mistakes are made. But, since war is the balance to peace, it's not something we can just get rid of.

Which brings me to a question... Tenchu, are you bitching because America has been fighting a lot of wars, or because you just simply hate America? I know you understand that war isn't something that's going to ever really go away, so it would seem irrational to me for you to hate America solely because it's been at war for the last eighty years.

[Amnell]

Well, you managed to not answer my question....

Your bushido-esque stuff looks more and more irrational every time we debate.... "It is still evil you become, when you easily had the alternative to refuse evil, yet you did not." Sometimes you don't have an alternative. Sometimes you do, but it's pointless.

Did you ever see the movie Master and Commander? There's a scene where they get caught in a big storm chasing after the French ship. One of the characters shimmies up the mast to untangle some ropes, but the mast breaks before he finishes and he goes into the water. The mast is still attached to the ship by all the ropes, though, and it's pulling the shipping over, threatening to capsize the whole thing. The captain orders several of the crewmen to cut the ropes to the mast, even as the overboard man is trying to climb the ropes back to the ship. If they'd have waited, he might have gotten back to the ship and lived. Also if they'd have waited, the ship might have capsized and every member of the crew would have died.

Either choice led to something bad happening. The choice that resulted in the least bad killed one man but saved over a hundred. Tell me now that the captain compromised himself and his honour in that situation. Fuckin' tell me that, and show everyone how fucked up your philosophy is.

*His third option was to sit and do nothing, which again would have led to the death of everyone--hence, third option=pointless

At this point, if the opinion is coming from you specifically, I'm perfectly happy with "disgraceful" methods. Why? Because there is apparently no way to fight a war today that isn't disgraceful, by your definition. "Zomg, a chunk of concrete from the fortified bunker you bombed flew across the street and hit an elementary school! U r t3h disr4c3!!!111oneleven"

Even without the shit in Fallujah, I'm sure you would tell me that everything we've done in Iraq was disgraceful, everything we've done in Afghanistan is disgraceful, the dirt we set foot on is disgraceful.

Shut up.

[Amnell]

I knew about the Uranium because I'm a military otaku. I probably know more about the military and its equipment than most GIs who stick around for one tour.

The only bullets that use DU are large caliber munitions that show up on tanks and aircraft. It's too heavy to be carried with a GI's standard load, and you don't really need to use DU to get through a few layers of kevlar, anyway.

[Amnell]

I'm not lying. I knew the moment I read your assertion about DU that you were incorrect. I did check wikipedia to make sure I wasn't also mistaken, but I knew that your information was wrong without having to look. In fact, I would not have even checked at all were it not for your military experience.

And just so you know, I would not waste my time trying to impress you.

Master and Commander is not different. It was a lesser of evils. You were saying that "becoming" the lesser of evils is still evil. Well, yeah, that's why it's "two" evils. The point was simply that you don't always have the luxury of having your cake and eating it, too. As I remember it, the mast and the kid who went with it were swept away from the ship about as fast as the crew cut the ropes. They all knew that there was no rescuing the other kid. They didn't have the little floaties you see on cruise ships these days, and sending someone out after him would have been a pointless waste of another life.

I don't know what world you live in, but in the real world, shit just doesn't happen in way you can deal with one-hundred percent of the time. Shit happens, and there's nothing that can be done about it. Back to the example of Japan, we could have pressed a conventional war, used the atomics, or just pushed for a stalemate where we were and called it even, or we could have just dropped the war all together in July and it would have been good--no little kids bombed, no pregnant women shot... Except that the Japanese would have just attacked us again. No matter what you say, Tenchu, you just can't always take the clean way out of everything.

In King Kong, from a logical point of view, those guys shouldn't have gone in after her. It's amazing how passion rules reason, though :P .

In any battle, what is the goal of the commander? To attrit his enemy while maintaining his own force. Coming from this, it's clear why the US military would use things like cruise missiles when they could have sent in two brigades of Marines and accomplished the same thing. Call it cowardice if you like. You're not going to change that that's how military logistics work.

For the record, Fallujah did have our people there on the ground getting shot, and you're still complaining.

I haven't said anything about ideals, yet.... Actually, I rather dislike ideals, idealism, and idealists. They're irrational, they start fights, they're often misguided... They just aren't worth it. There are too damn many idealists in this world, and most of them seem to be living in Washington, DC and San Francisco. So I won't have a problem with having to die for some "fucking ideal".

Tenchu, you are an idealist. You cling to this idea that the world is somehow yours to manipulate because you have a heart of stone or some such thing. You think that you can survive this world without ever having to compromise something. The nature of this world IS COMPROMISE. It doesn't matter if you're haggling over price or fighting a war.

I'm sure you're going to try to tell me that I'm an idealist for trying to defend my country's honour -_- . Don't bother. I have an affinity for my country and I believe that it's a great nation, in spite of its faults. Nothing is perfect, and I'm not going to waste my time fixating on everything that's wrong.

You should try it sometime, maybe you'll be a happier person *_* .

[Amnell]

Aw, but I like doggies~~~!

All you see is our military blowing shit up, eh? Are you aware that the USA is also the largest supplier of foriegn aid? Some of the best advances in science, medicine, and other benign fields have come out of the states.

I think the better analogy is to the mythical theme of the "Lady", where the lady or goddess has a most benign side, but there is also a darker side to her that is... most unsettling.

ED: Since it's 2 AM over here, I am going to sleep. I look forward to reading the next batch of irrationality in the morning -.- *yawn* Good night

[Ronin4hire]

Originally Posted by Tyrien

You must be a little confused. Not to mention you have so much unconditional stereotypical hate for something you really know nothing about to even attempt to argue this fairly.

A mainland invasion was necessary. You can't just bomb a country in a war like that then not do nothing. You have to bring troops in to tie up all the lose ends.

Your comment about early wanting to test out a new weapon is not only racist but discriminatory against an entire country.

I think you've proved you have given up any rights you have about input in this conversation.

Not really. Think about it. The United States was not blind to the Soviet threat. Remember the Korean War? General McCarthur was pushing to use nukes. The only thing stopping the United States using nukes in Korea was the fact that the USSR had successfully tested a nuke by then.

Also how was my comment discriminatory?

And yes the invasion of Japan was necessary in a way, but not to end the war as you are claiming.... I don't think you understand the situation back then. Japan at the time was ALL BUT defeated. The United States however knew that they had to beat the Soviets to Japan.

[UNaruto1990]

Well, I am with Tenchu 100%, I find Tenchu very reasonable unlike Amnell, by the way, there is absolutly no excuse for the USA to what what it's done in Iraq, the USA came to Iraq for oil, nothing less.... oh and those terrorists in Iraq are the ones who are trying to protect Iraq from the USA, because they oppose the USA, they are called terrorists.