Rape games to be banned in Japan

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

Don't get me wrong, people can make their own decisions about the world. But this is just too far. Rape is a horrible thing and shouldn't ever be represented as pleasurable and positive. It gives vunerable people the wrong idea about it.

I question how far you're willing to go to police this, and how you suggest going about it. Since rape is a fantasy for all genders, all orientations, and all positions (rapist, rape victim), and is therefore represented as positive and pleasurable at the very least in the minds of individuals, you can see my concern that we are on a slippery slope towards the Mental Health Police, of which there are actual examples in human history, and plenty of fictional versions to be found in host of SF and dystopian novels/comics/movies etc.

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I think you misunderstood my intent.

While it's absolutely wonderful that this information is readily available, I was being hypothetical, not "foot stamping." I was saying such information as you have been provided should be offered by any agent, government or non, such as the industry regulatory agency mentioned in the original article as evidence of its policy changes. When I say "I want" I am being proverbial. I am speaking as the public demanding that policy decisions be backed up. I am not talking to you or anyone else individually, nor am I talking as myself. I was being dramatic for emphasis.

I am well aware of the above statistics. I am, after all, a gender rights activist. This does not absolve agents from providing this information when making policy decisions. In addition, such information highlights the way we fail boys, then fail young men. If you chase these statistics to their origin, you will see that there are issues begining in early childhood that are far more relevant than eroge games featuring rape. However, this is not my point. Again, my sole point was to avoid "witchhunts." Which is a very real fear when the agencies do not explain reasoning, or worse, the public does not demand it.

Well, then I'm sorry for getting carried away. Admittedly you didn't quote my post, but then again, it's somewhat impossible to tell from your post that you ARE being hypothetical, and apologies if I seem slow, but it still doesn't read that way on the first look, even with your explanation. Also what's 'proverbial' about it- did you mean 'irony'?. Please be clearer in future. Your words are tagged under YOUR name, not with a sock puppet marked " voice of general public". A small intro wouldn't have gone amiss.

But yes, I think there is a lot of unfounded opinion that comes up when these sorts of issues get grist to the mill. I mentioned Miyazaki earlier, the serial killer. His capture led to the first crackdown on pornography and some general regulations put in effect for the first time. Unfortunately it also lead to witch-hunting of Otaku. At the end of the day though, this issue is being decided in Japan. We don't know that the relevant information isn't being provided to the relevant people, or by 'agent' did you mean the government to the public. Well, it is, mostly. You just have to be able to search government websites, but suicide statistics are publicly available, and i'm sure other crime data is as well.

I do agree through that there are some bad failures in the system. Particularly concerning mental health. The Japanese mental health system is slowly improving, and it does have the most productive psychological association in asia, however research and general practice seem to be worlds apart, the latter being years behind the former.

Anyway, we are digressing. My original argument was that, as a niche market, these games seem to appeal to only a very specific characters, eg individuals who find descriptions of rape a turn on. Those characteristics then have a certain disquieting degree of overlap with characteristics of rapists, ie, rapists also find descriptions of rape a turn on. So whilst i'm not saying that every rape game player is therefore a rapist or indeed will become them, i'm saying in the rape game player population there is a strong probability that the percentage of players who are also rapists, or will also become rapist is much much higher than for players of other commercial games.

I didn't use the word pederast as that is specifically men and young boys where as pedophilia doesn't imply gender for either perp or victim, that and these games tend to revolve around men victimizing women. I assume under most general statistics pederasty is simply incorporated into the pedophile data, nonetheless, more girls than boys get sexually abused.

[MissMisa]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

I question how far you're willing to go to police this, and how you suggest going about it. Since rape is a fantasy for all genders, all orientations, and all positions (rapist, rape victim), and is therefore represented as positive and pleasurable at the very least in the minds of individuals, you can see my concern that we are on a slippery slope towards the Mental Health Police, of which there are actual examples in human history, and plenty of fictional versions to be found in host of SF and dystopian novels/comics/movies etc.

What people get up to in their own time is up to them. People are allowed to enjoy what they want, and think what they want. It's nothing to do with peoples thoughts. The problem is the distribution of media portraying a crime as something pleasurable.

I don't know how they are going to enforce such a ban, but I agree with it. It is likely that people are still going to be able to come across such media. But it will be more difficult for people who aren't supposed to be viewing it (minors) to view it, which is the main issue.

[Tsuwabuki]

My tone is scholastic and neutral, just as it would be in any philosophical discussion between philosophers I would have via journals, panels, or online forums. There is no need to read any emotional color into my posts. If there should come a time when I have an emotional response to offer, I will say so, "Such and such upsets me, such and such angers me" etc. There will be an explicit statement of emotional content.

Originally Posted by Columbine

Well, then I'm sorry for getting carried away. Admittedly you didn't quote my post, but then again, it's somewhat impossible to tell from your post that you ARE being hypothetical, and apologies if I seem slow, but it still doesn't read that way on the first look, even with your explanation. Also what's 'proverbial' about it- did you mean 'irony'?. Please be clearer in future. Your words are tagged under YOUR name, not with a sock puppet marked " voice of general public". A small intro wouldn't have gone amiss.

You're getting carried away now. I never accused you of being slow. I don't see why you are implying I did. Furthermore I have often said today that in this issue I have no opinion (in all honestly I do, but that opinion is, in fact, a third opinion), and that my goal is merely to make sure that certain epistemic standards are met.

Proverbial in that I does not represent me, but is rather a metaphor for the fact that "I, the public" deserve for those epistemic standards to be met. In the same way proverbial "you" does not represent the actual person that you happen to be, but rather a metaphorical you encompassing all individuals covered by a certain set of conditions currently in discussion. I always endeavor to be as precise as possible, I need not be told to do so, as I will adjust as it becomes clear to me that I have been misunderstood.

I most certainly did not mean "irony" and have no idea how you would come to suggest that as an alternative. I cannot follow your logic as how it would even be considered remotely relevant.

The earlier posts, I hoped, offered the context that would amount to your "small intro."

But yes, I think there is a lot of unfounded opinion that comes up when these sorts of issues get grist to the mill. I mentioned Miyazaki earlier, the serial killer. His capture led to the first crackdown on pornography and some general regulations put in effect for the first time. Unfortunately it also lead to witch-hunting of Otaku. At the end of the day though, this issue is being decided in Japan. We don't know that the relevant information isn't being provided to the relevant people, or by 'agent' did you mean the government to the public. Well, it is, mostly. You just have to be able to search government websites, but suicide statistics are publicly available, and i'm sure other crime data is as well.

By agent I meant any organisation making policy changes to the public. In this case the regulatory agency for this industry.

Also, I live in Japan. I pay taxes in Japan. I am politically active in Japan. I cannot vote, as I am not a citizen, but that does not mean I am not part of the public.

I do agree through that there are some bad failures in the system. Particularly concerning mental health. The Japanese mental health system is slowly improving, and it does have the most productive psychological association in asia, however research and general practice seem to be worlds apart, the latter being years behind the former.

Indeed, it is quite horrid.

Anyway, we are digressing. My original argument was that, as a niche market, these games seem to appeal to only a very specific characters, eg individuals who find descriptions of rape a turn on. Those characteristics then have a certain disquieting degree of overlap with characteristics of rapists, ie, rapists also find descriptions of rape a turn on. So whilst i'm not saying that every rape game player is therefore a rapist or indeed will become them, i'm saying in the rape game player population there is a strong probability that the percentage of players who are also rapists, or will also become rapist is much much higher than for players of other commercial games.

And until a positive, cause and effect correlation is found between non-rapists becoming rapists and playing these games, I see only one more step towards fascism. A tiny step. An very, very, very tiny step, but that's where it starts. If such a correlation exists, that's another issue entirely.

I didn't use the word pederast as that is specifically men and young boys where as pedophilia doesn't imply gender for either perp or victim, that and these games tend to revolve around men victimizing women. I assume under most general statistics pederasty is simply incorporated into the pedophile data, nonetheless, more girls than boys get sexually abused.

Actually, in this case, I meant pederasty as the ACT of, regardless of gender/sex of the participants. While typically associated with men and young boys, here I wanted to clarify that one who is a pedophile need not ever act out their desires.

Furthermore, calling someone who molests a child a pedophile may, in fact, be incorrect. If the victim is a victim of convenience, which does compromise a sizable portion of the victim statistics, then the correlation between desire and act becomes much fuzzier. Sex offender statistics do not (often) tell us why or how a victim was chosen, when it most certainly does matter. Or even if the victim was a victim. A recent case in Georgia shows what happens when a male teen is convicted of being a sex offender for having consensual sex with a female teen.

We must disassociate thoughts with actions, or that leads back to what I mentioned in the post above: the Mental Health Police.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

What people get up to in their own time is up to them. People are allowed to enjoy what they want, and think what they want. It's nothing to do with peoples thoughts. The problem is the distribution of media portraying a crime as something pleasurable.

I don't know how they are going to enforce such a ban, but I agree with it. It is likely that people are still going to be able to come across such media. But it will be more difficult for people who aren't supposed to be viewing it (minors) to view it, which is the main issue.

Would you allow manufacture and possession of said media, but not distribution?

Quite relevant to the current discussion, in Japan manufacture and distribution of child pornography is a crime. However, possession, unlike in other countries, is completely legal.

The UN has been trying for years to get the Diet to change that. So far, it hasn't happened, unless I missed some pretty big news (and I read a Japanese newspaper at least once a week).

[ozkai]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Would you allow manufacture and possession of said media, but not distribution?

Quite relevant to the current discussion, in Japan manufacture and distribution of child pornography is a crime. However, possession, unlike in other countries, is completely legal.

The UN has been trying for years to get the Diet to change that. So far, it hasn't happened, unless I missed some pretty big news (and I read a Japanese newspaper at least once a week).

Yes, Japanese laws need a HUGE review.

I'm meeting a chap tomorrow whose wife dissapeared back to Japan with his two kids.

Their is now an Australian warrant out for her arrest for child abduction!

Unfortunately, like many Japanese Hentai laws, they also don't have a law outside for child abduction and that includes the Hague convention.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by MissMisa

The reason is that simulated rape would generally give an incorrect message about rape, especially if a younger audience is subjected to it (with the rise of the availability of such media and the internet, this is entirely possible.) It's better if such media doesn't exist. It's more than just the fact that I dislike it. I don't like pornography, but the parties (generally) consent to such practices and whether or not it is a violation of man or woman is questionable. Though I still worry about it's availability to children. (I know children aren't innocent little people who haven't got a clue, but they are more easily influenced.)

Don't get me wrong, people can make their own decisions about the world. But this is just too far. Rape is a horrible thing and shouldn't ever be represented as pleasurable and positive. It gives vunerable people the wrong idea about it.

But so many things in the media are illegal things to do in real life, yet still exist. If people were to act them out in real life, it would all be disasterous.

In order to stop things being avaliable to children, both sex and violent products, there are ratings placed on things, or on the internet, credit cards are used. Of course, accidents happen with poor distribution or careless people, but parents have a job to monitor their children, it should not be an issue.

In the end, I'd much rather someone to walk around acting out some sick rape game than someone going around acting out the movie Saw. I think we all would. There is media out there designed to give you a rush other than sexual which is equally as bad, and as equally as inapproriate for children to view. You only dislike this one due to your own personal preference as to what you think is "going too far". Others have tried to do the same with different things already. Eminem got a serving, but served it right back, because it is innocent. People simply disliked the taste. Harmless things should not be discarded due to a single parties preference.

[SSJup81]

But these games are pretty much justifying that rape is okay. I think that's pretty much where Misa was going with this. Junk like GTA, though bad, does constantly remind you that what you're doing is wrong. I'm not getting that impression with rape games.

[Tsuwabuki]

Originally Posted by SSJup81

But these games are pretty much justifying that rape is okay. I think that's pretty much where Misa was going with this. Junk like GTA, though bad, does constantly remind you that what you're doing is wrong. I'm not getting that impression with rape games.

I don't think they are explicitly saying, "go rape someone in real life." If they are, then you might be able to lay an incitement charge. Most of these games, especially the loli ones, if I recall correctly, already carry warnings, in Japanese, that tell you not to take any of this as reality.

Related news, Minori has now shut itself off from non-Japanese IPs because of this issue, and non-Japanese fans are none too pleased. They say this is only being done because of complaints from overseas countries, so essentially, "screw y'all if you're not from Japan."

[Columbine]

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

My tone is scholastic and neutral, just as it would be in any philosophical discussion between philosophers I would have via journals, panels, or online forums. There is no need to read any emotional color into my posts. If there should come a time when I have an emotional response to offer, I will say so, "Such and such upsets me, such and such angers me" etc. There will be an explicit statement of emotional content. You're getting carried away now. I never accused you of being slow. I don't see why you are implying I did.

Noted for future reference, but nonetheless, still awkward to spot in a forum stuffed with other posters who as a rule of thumb operate on the opposite end of the spectrum. Especially on a first time encounter- must have missed your "I'm not forming an opinion" bit.

Secondly, and... this is getting convoluted; I wasn't accusing you of accusing me of being slow. I was saying "Here I am, about to say something which might be another misinterpretation of what you said, but I'm going to offer it up anyway, if only to find out." Clearly wires got crossed again.

Vis 'proverbial', to me this word does not mean what you think it means. "Proverbial" means "relating to a word/phrase/situation directly referred to in a proverb or idiom". That's why your use of it confused me. As far as my experience goes, "the proverbial I' or "the proverbial you' makes almost zero sense. There isn't an obvious idiom to relate 'I' or 'you' to. That's why I asked if you perhaps meant it ironically, but in retrospect, perhaps you mean 'metaphor' or 'representative'.

Enough nit-picking, however, let's get back on to the topic.

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

And until a positive, cause and effect correlation is found between non-rapists becoming rapists and playing these games, I see only one more step towards fascism. A tiny step. An very, very, very tiny step, but that's where it starts. If such a correlation exists, that's another issue entirely.

A fair point, but not one I entirely agree with. There is much mixed research into such correlations, and depending on the study the results seem to go either way. Still, the fact that the population is a vulnerable one, is a culture that possibly would appeal to rapists makes it worth paying attention and giving some risk assessment. I'm not exactly saying the games necessarily make non-rapists into rapists. Look at it the other way around, maybe the rapists or those individuals who would rape (even if they knew it was wrong but just didn't care) would be led to play the games. In which case, the producer should be thinking, "should I really be catering for this? Is this encouraging? Does it send a message to rapists that what they do is, on some level, accepted by society regardless of what the law says. Could it be viewed a subtle flag of support? how does my fanbase operate? Is there a chance the fans who are mere fetishists could be incited by more dangerous fans into committing crime?"

Originally Posted by Tsuwabuki

Actually, in this case, I meant pederasty as the ACT of, regardless of gender/sex of the participants. While typically associated with men and young boys, here I wanted to clarify that one who is a pedophile need not ever act out their desires.

Hmmm, ok, I think I see where you're coming from. I didn't use 'pederast' as pedophile seemed to be a better umbrella term, but it's true that the one term denotes an actual act and the other a mental condition. I can also appreciate what you mean about correlations between desire and act, however I was simply trying to back up the point I made that there are more male sex offenders than female sex offenders and in general the same trend is evident for child sex abuse cases.