Gender/ Sex Separation

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

Just try and appreciate the progress Japanese women have made in the last couple hundred years. If you look at it like that, they're almost flying...

If people thought that way, I would be a slave right now.

You're right though, there has been a lot of progress.

[Barone1551]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

If people thought that way, I would be a slave right now.

You're right though, there has been a lot of progress.

Now I'm not trying to insult you or anything. And by no means am I trying to say what you said is false. But do you ever look at the bright side of anything. Is there any good in anything you look at or read. When you analyze something, is it always negative. It seems nothing can be taken with a grain of salt in you eyes. Someone is either always racist or sexist. Cant you just relax, maybe just a little bit.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by Barone1551

Now I'm not trying to insult you or anything. And by no means am I trying to say what you said is false. But do you ever look at the bright side of anything. Is there any good in anything you look at or read. When you analyze something, is it always negative. It seems nothing can be taken with a grain of salt in you eyes. Someone is either always racist or sexist. Cant you just relax, maybe just a little bit.

Maybe it's because you only know me through this forum, but I'm actually pretty relaxed. I'm usually the one telling my friends to relax and stop being paranoid. But at the same time, I'm realistic - and as a black, bisexual woman, it will be easier for me to see racism, homophobia, and sexism - easier than a white, straight man. I'm obviously not the type of person to sit back and let it fly. And unfortunately, I have been seeing threads of oppression (pun not intended, I swear.) So, unfortunately I guess for you and anyone else annoyed by it, I will say something about it... though really, I think that's only been in three threads or so. Not that bad.

But thanks for being nice about it. =)

[Bilgewater]

Originally Posted by YoshimiTheEthereal

I really don't know why gender groups even exist. It's stupid and it hurts people who are not one of the two. That's why androgyny exists, and even why most people who have sex change operations have them, probably. People may want to change their sex so that their gender and sex match, so that they will perhaps no longer feel hurt and humiliated by society.

Well you wont find much relief in Japan, or might I add with most foreigners in Japan as well. We dont fit in anywhere either.

My advice is to just go with the flow. Not like things are going to change anytime soon.

As for the basic question, there are many times when the genders are distinguished from each other. You got your public baths, schools, and elementary and junior high schools typically seat students boy girl boy girl even down to graduation ceremonies where the students walk down the aisle boy girl to get their diplomas. My community has some kind of mandatory community service jobs that every home owner must do, and the jobs are either for men, or for women. Women are generally assigned cleaning and cooking jobs, while men are required to do the jobs like volunteer fire fighters or helping the local shrine when there is some festival, which are basically reasons to get drunk (none of us would know what to do if we were asked to put a fire out).

I dont know what to say about this androgynous stuff. Just... well, you might want to just stay away from anything that makes you uncomfortable like onsens and single gender schools.

As I said, things arent going to change in our lifetimes.

[solemnclockwork]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

ME. I'M evidence. It's damaging for me, personally, to have to be separated from men, because with that separation comes gender roles. It's emotionally damaging for me to have to listen to people say that - as a woman - I have a specific role in the world:to be submissive to men. That's what I mean by separation - to say that I am different from a man; to say that being "girly" means that I ought to be submissive and wear dresses, etc.; and to say that I'm mentally ill because I don't want to be submissive is pretty emotionally stressful. It's damaging for enough women to have spurred the feminist movement and black feminism.

It's not impossible to take away the labels of male and female, to just think of someone as a human being first before seeing their assumed biological makeup and therefore assumed cultural roles. It's difficult because that's the way all humans have been raised, but that's the way I personally try to live.

No, did not ask for your life story as an example, I asked for ACCREDITED evidence that separated people by sex is harming. Keep in mind we have been doing this for hundreds if not thousands if years. To add did you only get hurt (feelings), or can you prove that you been mentally damaged by this?

Ugh, No just NO. Where did you get the idea that being separated from the opposite means you have to be submissive? By that logic you can apply the same to men and say they are being submissive also. I've already addressed the "dresses" part so I would ask you go back and reread that section. I don't see the connection your trying to say here.

Equal rights spurred the feminist movement NOT separation. Does the vast majority of people see someone else being non-human? Point is you cannot deny that there is an fundamental difference between the sexes. Last to add, culture is as it is, that groups usual way of thinking.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

ME. I'M evidence. It's damaging for me, personally, to have to be separated from men, because with that separation comes gender roles. It's emotionally damaging for me to have to listen to people say that - as a woman - I have a specific role in the world:to be submissive to men. That's what I mean by separation - to say that I am different from a man; to say that being "girly" means that I ought to be submissive and wear dresses, etc.; and to say that I'm mentally ill because I don't want to be submissive is pretty emotionally stressful. It's damaging for enough women to have spurred the feminist movement and black feminism.

It's not impossible to take away the labels of male and female, to just think of someone as a human being first before seeing their assumed biological makeup and therefore assumed cultural roles. It's difficult because that's the way all humans have been raised, but that's the way I personally try to live.

How does gender seperation mean that females have to be submissive? No one is telling you that except yourself.

Anyway, men are naturally dominant. On average, they're bigger, stronger, faster, smarter, more aggressive, more industrious, all that (keep in mind, this is on average); how did you think the world was going to play out?

However, nowadays men do not try and belittle or control women like used to be so in most places (aside Islamic countries). They're still going to be fairly dominant in society and relationships, however. That is a natural thing, but.

Still, you do still have all the chances men have now in most cases, and gender seperation in social places is no effect to that. Try and tell the Chancellor of Germany, Prime Minister of New Zealand, or women like Hillary Clinton what you say in the above post.

I think the effects of gender segregation you're talking about are imagined by those who are trying to cry out about an entirley different subject.

Of course, the option still remains, if you dislike the policies of a certain club or event, then do not attend it. No one is forcing this upon you; it is optional to attend such places.

[Tenchu]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

as a black, bisexual woman, it will be easier for me to see racism, homophobia, and sexism - easier than a white, straight man.

How is that so?

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by solemnclockwork

No, did not ask for your life story as an example, I asked for ACCREDITED evidence that separated people by sex is harming. Keep in mind we have been doing this for hundreds if not thousands if years. To add did you only get hurt (feelings), or can you prove that you been mentally damaged by this?

Ugh, No just NO. Where did you get the idea that being separated from the opposite means you have to be submissive? By that logic you can apply the same to men and say they are being submissive also. I've already addressed the "dresses" part so I would ask you go back and reread that section. I don't see the connection your trying to say here.

Equal rights spurred the feminist movement NOT separation. Does the vast majority of people see someone else being non-human? Point is you cannot deny that there is an fundamental difference between the sexes. Last to add, culture is as it is, that groups usual way of thinking.

First, please stop saying "NO, JUST NO." Its obnoxious. I think it's completely possible to have a calm discussion, just expressing ideas, without saying shit like "OMG YOU'RE SO WRONG." Relax.

It's always funny how personal stories aren't valued. Personal stories are what spurred the need for movements. I feel like my life is "accredited." If that's not good enough for you, move on.

The need to make women submissive to men is what separated men and women. Whenever one group wants to oppress another, suddenly labels and expected qualities come with these labels. It's the same thing with race and sexuality. In fact, before the Victoria age, there was no "homosexual." There was just sex and desire. Then, in order to make one group of people submissive to another, scholars began declaring that people who had sex with the same gender were mentally ill. There was a new group - homosexuals were separated from heterosexuals. Now that they've been separated, people can easily discriminate against them.

And yes, equal rights did spur the feminist movements. Because women, who were separated from men and felt emotionally attacked that they could not do the same things as men, decided to do something about it.

I'm just making up a quick example, but there are also many fundamental differences between women and pregnant women, right? Yet we still think of them as women. We still have women go into the same bathrooms, still expect them to have the same qualities that come with the labels of "woman." If we suddenly wanted to discriminate against pregnant women, however, we could easily do that. We could call pregnant women by a completely different label that isn't associated with women in general. Maybe we could call them preggers. From there, we could label them and say there are expected qualities for all preggers. They're all supposed to be moody and constantly hungry.

But we don't. We also don't need to do it for men and women. Then, we would just be humans with biological differences, as my brown skin is darker than a white person's skin, and there wouldn't be as much discrimination.

[mercedesjin]

Originally Posted by Tenchu

How is that so?

It's called the veil. It's Du Bois's theory on double consciousness. Because black people are alienated as black - different from white - we see ourselves not only as humans but as black people. From that perspective, because we see our black identity, we can see when someone is attacking it; whereas on the other hand, if you're a white person in a room filled only with white people, you don't need to see your white identity. Then, if someone were to attack you, you would only see it as attacking your human-self rather than your white-self.

Also, from your other post, read my response to the other person on this thread.

Men are "naturally more dominant" when you think dominant as stronger, faster, etc. Society places more value on those qualities so that men can be more dominant. Those qualities were helpful - in the stone age. Nowadays, it doesn't matter, yet we still think of those qualities as valuable. Society also ever-so-conveniently places more value on the person who goes out and makes money while the person at home, who takes care of the house and children, holds no value... to the point where if there was to be a divorce, the person who went out and made money is the one who will win everything. It's no coincidence that society put women into the role of the ones expected to stay at home.

And, I know it's a little off-topic, but it's very interesting to see what happens to same-sex couples. When there are two men, and one man stays at home, he's suddenly the submissive one and feels the discrimination women feel. If we took away those values, took away the expected roles and qualities that fit into different labels, and just took away the labels completely, there wouldn't be discrimination.

I'm just curious - where are you from? There are different cultural expectations for women in every country, and I assumed you were from America.

[bELyVIS]

Originally Posted by mercedesjin

In fact, before the Victoria age, there was no "homosexual." There was just sex and desire. Then, in order to make one group of people submissive to another, scholars began declaring that people who had sex with the same gender were mentally ill. There was a new group - homosexuals were separated from heterosexuals. Now that they've been separated, people can easily discriminate against them.

Where did you get this information? There has always been homosexuality. The ancient Greeks found it more pleasurable for a man to be with a man because they were away from home a long time.
The Muslim religion forbids pre-martial sex with the opposite sex, but since homosexuality wasn't mentioned they thought it to be OK.
The scholars had nothing to do with labeling people as mentally ill, it was certain religions that did (and still do today) that like people who are gay have a choice.